Emperors new energy
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15-12-2011, 03:36 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
The message in the OP is that if somebody claims something, he/she must have evidence to back it up. He explains the difference between science and pseudoscience, but I am not entirely sure what Luminon was trying to say. I am a skeptic, but when I see a study with evidence, not just hear-tell stories, I enjoy in the new discoveries. But when you start talking about homeopathy and your sole evidence is a story you heard from somebody that knew somebody who was cured, that is just bullshitting.

The science has evolved so much with equipment and new knowledge that there is little we can't explain, see and test. Even things we still can't explain with evidence need to be logical and have a good scientific theory that makes sense compared to the things we know already. It is like Higgs-Boson particle, we still don't have the evidence, but the theory is solid, there are a lot of facts that support it, so now we wait until we are able to prove or disprove the existence of this particle. It is called theoretical science until it is proven and confirmed.

Science is a constant work in progress, changing and evolving with every new discovery.

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15-12-2011, 04:58 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
(14-12-2011 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  Please don't presume to know what I will or will not do.
All right, we'll see.

(14-12-2011 10:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  This is the part thaty sounds like conspiracy theory thinking. You again presume to know what a skeptic or scientist will do or say.
Science is open to other planets and uncomfortable zones. The 20th century had several theories that overturned earlier theories and some were pretty far outside the comfort zones of many people. Relativity, quantum mechanics, plate tectonics, nuclear energy, etc. These were accepted when there was a preponderance of evidence. Many people resisted accepting them, Einstein went to his grave not accepting the implications of quantum theory.
We'll see. Maybe you're an open-minded person. The "fringe science" often attracts believers and commercial frauds it and is usually rejected for that reason. Although if followed properly, it could bring objective standards and take the ground away from the pseudoscience.
When I get some time, I'll post the thread for what I think is the most solid evidence for fringe science and its implications. It is really a new way of looking at the world and it explains much that we are otherwise forced to reject. I'll watch your and others' reactions.

(14-12-2011 06:50 AM)bemore Wrote:  It is an interesting article.

I believe technology will only take us so far. It will then be replaced with a search inside spirituality. With that I dont mean "god" but I mean energy.
Some people consider the totality of all energy as "god". The rational community is often confused by what the new age folks consider as "energy". Let's have a little explanation, I think it's important to understand how these people think and see the world.

Energy, as the non-skeptical community uses it is an abstraction. In the same sense as hot water is abstraction, or oxygenated blood, charged battery electrolyte. It is meant as an unidentified, sufficiently fluid or volatile substance floating or flowing around, charged with some unidentified physical energy, hard to say whether in form of temperature, magnetism, electrostatic charge, a combination of these or something more. In this sense, "energy" is a material, a substance for work.
But at the same time, this "energy" is made of whatever our subtle bodies are made of. And subtle bodies are made of the substance of the subtle worlds. And the substance of the subtle worlds is the stuff that thoughts, ideas and dreams are made of. So in a certain sense, the "energy" is psychoactive and vital, more than that, it is a carrier of ideas and its long-termed changes of general ambience determine the course of history. The model of subtle worlds and subtle bodies is the occult relationship between matter, energy and thought. And if there is anything possible about it, then technology will never disappear, it will only become interchangeable with shaping and powering (and maybe materializing) the "stuff of thought" and will be fundamentally impossible to distinguish from magic, as Mr Clarke would say Tongue

So basically, when New Age people say "I'll be sending you energy" they mean pretty much the same thing as "I'll pray for you." Although for them it is an active, less or more technical idea, not passive asking some external deity for help.
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15-12-2011, 05:50 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
This all sounds nice, but since there ARE NO PROOFS, this theory is just a theory and has absolutely nothing to do with science and scientific methods and scientific evidence. This "energy" you speak of is the most typical example of pseudoscience, just like homeopathy, astrology and all other "could be" stuff.

My thought and dreams are not some imaginary energy, but the collection of electrical impulses in my brain, these impulses can be measured and mapped, they are how our brain and all other nerves work. There is nothing abstract there, the abstract part you are talking about is the pseudoscience theory. One can not send his brain energy impulses to another person, specially not through iPad and a picture. Even if they can do it, what would that do the other person, who is to say that it will help anyone? Maybe it would cause them to have a seizure... But since we can measure every energy impulse in human body, I am sure that if we can send our energy around us, that energy burst could be detected with precise equipment. If it can not be detected, it is not there, since we can detect impulses in human brain, meaning, we know the voltage and strength of the brain impulses. The "sent energy" must be stronger than the regular human brain activity, so it would be even easier to discover it.

There, this is called scientific and logical reasoning. Please do the same, with examples, if you want us to try and grasp your point of view.

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15-12-2011, 10:36 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
(15-12-2011 04:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Energy, as the non-skeptical community uses it is an abstraction. In the same sense as hot water is abstraction, or oxygenated blood, charged battery electrolyte.
But hot water, oxygenated blood, and electrolytes aren't abstractions. They are quantifiable and measurable.
Quote:It is meant as an unidentified, sufficiently fluid or volatile substance floating or flowing around, charged with some unidentified physical energy, hard to say whether in form of temperature, magnetism, electrostatic charge, a combination of these or something more. In this sense, "energy" is a material, a substance for work.
If it remains unidentified, then it remains hypothetical. Energy is something that can be used to do work, but to be useable it will need to be measurable, quantifiable.
Quote:But at the same time, this "energy" is made of whatever our subtle bodies are made of. And subtle bodies are made of the substance of the subtle worlds. And the substance of the subtle worlds is the stuff that thoughts, ideas and dreams are made of. So in a certain sense, the "energy" is psychoactive and vital, more than that, it is a carrier of ideas and its long-termed changes of general ambience determine the course of history.
You haven't defined 'subtle'. What is a subtle body, or a subtle world?
Quote:The model of subtle worlds and subtle bodies is the occult relationship between matter, energy and thought. And if there is anything possible about it, then technology will never disappear, it will only become interchangeable with shaping and powering (and maybe materializing) the "stuff of thought" and will be fundamentally impossible to distinguish from magic, as Mr Clarke would say Tongue
The relationship between matter and energy is pretty well known. Thought appears to be an emergent property of brains which function with known chemical and electrical energy and preocesses. So what is an 'occult relationship' ?
Quote:So basically, when New Age people say "I'll be sending you energy" they mean pretty much the same thing as "I'll pray for you." Although for them it is an active, less or more technical idea, not passive asking some external deity for help.
To actually do science, you'll need to define these terms so that hypotheses can be made, experiments done, and a theory built.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-12-2011, 12:01 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
Yeah, I just described how these New Age folks understand and use the "energy". As for whether it exists and what it is, that is another question. I personally think they have somewhat romatic and vague ideas about it all.

I must prepare and post a topic that will deal with the most basic forms of "energy" that were ever reliably proven. And with better definitions. So far, I think it all is internally consistent, nothing of that contradicts itself. And it does not necessarily contradict the current science. So the question now is, how good is the positive evidence.

Later in that topic I'll try to deal with the "energy", that is, as some people report, not really in our brain and electrical impulses. There are many people in the alternative medicine area who work with this "energy" on daily basis. It is entirely tangible to them. How are these people capable of perceiving this invisible "energy" out there around us and within us? If a healer stretches his hand forward and grabs a cloud of energy, where does the nerve signal of feeling originate? In the nerve endings of fingertips, or will it appear directly in the brain?
If so, do they just imagine these feelings with 100% realism? But what about if they report sudden and unexpected feeling of someone else's "energy", that they could not possibly create by wishful thinking? I am highly curious about this. Any insight will be appreciated.
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15-12-2011, 12:09 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(15-12-2011 12:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Later in that topic I'll try to deal with the "energy", that is, as some people report, not really in our brain and electrical impulses. There are many people in the alternative medicine area who work with this "energy" on daily basis. It is entirely tangible to them. How are these people capable of perceiving this invisible "energy" out there around us and within us? If a healer stretches his hand forward and grabs a cloud of energy, where does the nerve signal of feeling originate? In the nerve endings of fingertips, or will it appear directly in the brain?
If so, do they just imagine these feelings with 100% realism? But what about if they report sudden and unexpected feeling of someone else's "energy", that they could not possibly create by wishful thinking? I am highly curious about this. Any insight will be appreciated.

There is no evidence that there is any energy, or how anyone could "grab a cloud of energy".
The people who work with this alleged energy are likely either frauds or are deluded. Delusion is convincing and I think that buying in to a (sort of) self-consistent fantasy enables it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-12-2011, 02:41 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(05-12-2011 03:02 AM)Filox Wrote:  Really? An article like this and not a single comment in 2 days? You guys are beginning to loose interest in good stuff and you concentrate on just the casual stuff... I knew it's gonna start soon. Ah well, of I go to find more good and interesting stuff, you just continue facebooking on this forum.


(15-12-2011 02:41 PM)k37713 Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 03:02 AM)Filox Wrote:  Really? An article like this and not a single comment in 2 days? You guys are beginning to loose interest in good stuff and you concentrate on just the casual stuff... I knew it's gonna start soon. Ah well, of I go to find more good and interesting stuff, you just continue facebooking on this forum.

I'm an idiot - disregard post.. Apparently this lil lady can't work a forum

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15-12-2011, 03:33 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
The Dual split experiment......as an observer you can change what you see.





The Large Hadron Collider.....smashing particles together and picking apart the very matter that we are made from. Looking for the Higgs boson AKA "God" particle, which is thought to answer a lot of questions.

Quote:Physicists working at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) have announced preliminary new results that may point to the existence of the Higgs boson. While it has never yet been seen, this particle, or set of particles, is believed to convey mass to the fundamental particles that form the building blocks of the universe.

http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandevents...11-17-51-0

We are all swiming in a mass of electromagnetism that we have little understanding of.........





Kirlian photography on food showing potential energy





on people......





There is so much weird shit that we just dont know yet.....but as our technology grows at an expotential rate and uncovers the very matrix of what we are built with.......then who knows what science can be observed once we know the basic parameters.




(sorry for all the vids) Tongue

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

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15-12-2011, 05:15 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(15-12-2011 03:33 PM)bemore Wrote:  The Dual split experiment......as an observer you can change what you see.
The dual slit experiment doesn't depend on an observer, it depends on the slits.

Quote:The Large Hadron Collider.....smashing particles together and picking apart the very matter that we are made from. Looking for the Higgs boson AKA "God" particle, which is thought to answer a lot of questions.
You do realize that calling the Higgs boson the "God particle" is just ironic science humor?

Quote:We are all swiming in a mass of electromagnetism that we have little understanding of.........
Our understanding of electromagnetism is robust and doing quite well, thank you.

Quote:Kirlian photography on food showing potential energy
Kirlian photography requires an electric voltage be applied to the subject; that is the source of the energy,
not some mysterious and non-existent "potential energy".

Quote:There is so much weird shit that we just dont know yet.....but as our technology grows at an expotential rate and uncovers the very matrix of what we are built with.......then who knows what science can be observed once we know the basic parameters.
Yes, lots of weird shit that we will figure out with the scientific method, not with pseudo-science or new age mumbo-jumbo.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-12-2011, 06:12 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
Chas Wrote:There is no evidence that there is any energy, or how anyone could "grab a cloud of energy".
Right, there is no scientific, objective, peer-reviewed evidence repeatable by anyone, for that claim. Not yet, anyway.
As for what evidence is there, please look at the forum thread I started here.

Chas Wrote:The people who work with this alleged energy are likely either frauds or are deluded. Delusion is convincing and I think that buying in to a (sort of) self-consistent fantasy enables it.
Yes, that is the first most obvious assumption. But let's look at it closer:
Fraud is the motivation of someone who has something to gain or something to lose. It does not apply when a given person has nothing to gain or lose from the claim and is not proven to be a compulsive liar or attention freak.

Delusion is usually a symptom of a serious medical condition. The more serious, the more realistic the delusion is. Delusions can be also mental, but they have a cause too. I hope you don't believe delusions come from nowhere, you might as well say that god did it. "He will send them a strong delusion..."
Generally, a person with strong delusions is very unlikely to lead a normal life or have his delusion unnoticed. They sometimes don't even hide it.

Therefore, if you know such a clairvoyant person very well, or even happen to be one, you may find out that these objections do not apply at all. This is when it gets interesting.
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