Emperors new energy
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15-12-2011, 06:17 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(15-12-2011 06:12 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
Chas Wrote:The people who work with this alleged energy are likely either frauds or are deluded. Delusion is convincing and I think that buying in to a (sort of) self-consistent fantasy enables it.
Yes, that is the first most obvious assumption. But let's look at it closer:
Fraud is the motivation of someone who has something to gain or something to lose. It does not apply when a given person has nothing to gain or lose from the claim and is not proven to be a compulsive liar or attention freak.
Those who practice 'energy healing' of any kind for money have motivation to fraudulently claim it works.
Quote:Delusion is usually a symptom of a serious medical condition. The more serious, the more realistic the delusion is. Delusions can be also mental, but they have a cause too. I hope you don't believe delusions come from nowhere, you might as well say that god did it. "He will send them a strong delusion..."
Generally, a person with strong delusions is very unlikely to lead a normal life or have his delusion unnoticed. They sometimes don't even hide it.
Oh, just look at kingschosen.
Quote:Therefore, if you know such a clairvoyant person very well, or even happen to be one, you may find out that these objections do not apply at all. This is when it gets interesting.
There are no actual clairvoyants, so it's not very interesting.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-12-2011, 02:36 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
Hey Luminon, can I please ask you to read the OP again, this time slowly and with understanding. There you will see the explanation for pseudoscience and what is it used for.

Now about bioenergetics, those "healers" with magic touch. I know a few people who say that it did help them with some chronic pain, just like smoking a joint also helps them. Now lets presume that is not just the placebo effect, because these are intelligent people who do not believe in BS, but are disabled by car accident, so they need all the help they can get. Lets presume it actually works. That means that the bioenergetic can manipulate the electromagnetic field around him and the field around the person he is trying to heal. OK, this sounds more like the guy has superpowers, than anything else. But in a way I could buy that, since the endless possibilities of the human body and mind that are still evolving from within us. But there is no way ever that same technique could be used to manipulate electromagnetic field of another person on great distances, using iPad and a picture. That is just BS 100%, can you just imagine what extreme power you would need to manipulate Earths electromagnetism and on a specific place, where the specific person is? I think about the bioenergetics as people who give you a placebo effect, maybe even a bit of hypnoses.

And does anyone have evidence that it is not like I just said? No, in fact most of the explanations are based on placebo effect.

Evidence, people, evidence, when you claim something you must have evidence. No point in discussing without it.

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16-12-2011, 05:58 PM
 
RE: Emperors new energy
I think drinking water is a great idea, but I have my doubts on whether one milligram of water would get me further than one litre.
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17-12-2011, 04:43 AM
RE: Emperors new energy



For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
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22-12-2011, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2011 12:14 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Emperors new energy
(16-12-2011 02:36 AM)Filox Wrote:  Now about bioenergetics, those "healers" with magic touch. I know a few people who say that it did help them with some chronic pain, just like smoking a joint also helps them. Now lets presume that is not just the placebo effect, because these are intelligent people who do not believe in BS, but are disabled by car accident, so they need all the help they can get. Lets presume it actually works. That means that the bioenergetic can manipulate the electromagnetic field around him and the field around the person he is trying to heal. OK, this sounds more like the guy has superpowers, than anything else. But in a way I could buy that, since the endless possibilities of the human body and mind that are still evolving from within us. But there is no way ever that same technique could be used to manipulate electromagnetic field of another person on great distances, using iPad and a picture. That is just BS 100%, can you just imagine what extreme power you would need to manipulate Earths electromagnetism and on a specific place, where the specific person is? I think about the bioenergetics as people who give you a placebo effect, maybe even a bit of hypnoses.
Why must be everything based on electromagnetism? There are other possibilities than being a walking radio antenna. For example, an overlapping invisible subtle body of dark matter may exert pressure as a vector field and fling a stream concentrated ionized dark matter vapor at the object of desire... That would be actually closer to how these energy healers perceive their work, not in terms of beams and waves. More like clouds of less or more agitated and hot energy-stuff floating and flowing around and within them. Something like that.

But anyway, the idea with iPad makes no sense. It wouldn't work with electromagneticism as you say, but also without it. One guy sending energy changes nothing, when there are millions of fans watching the game and subconsciously sending energy to their favorite teams Big Grin

(16-12-2011 02:36 AM)Filox Wrote:  And does anyone have evidence that it is not like I just said? No, in fact most of the explanations are based on placebo effect.

Evidence, people, evidence, when you claim something you must have evidence. No point in discussing without it.
I see. Personal evidence is no evidence, it is a powerful motivation.
Objective evidence is rare. Obtaining it is what the science is about, with all its funding and technologies. Demanding such a thing from a guy in the street is a little unrealistic.
Nobody ever asked me for objective evidence IRL, personally. I think people in daily life just know that we often can't even prove where we had been a moment ago, much less the mysteries of nature. It's not like we're walking laboratories. We can either choose to believe a claimant (based on our own experience) or suspend our judgement. I never really saw anyone saying "As long as you don't bring objective evidence, I say you're full of shit and you're trying to deceive me." That's basically a social suicide Wink

Btw, I wouldn't underestimate placebo effect. With chemotherapy clinical trials, 30% of patients on placebo lost their hair. Is placebo really an explanation, if its mechanism of working is unknown?
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22-12-2011, 03:39 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(22-12-2011 12:10 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I see. Personal evidence is no evidence, it is a powerful motivation.
Correct.
Quote:Objective evidence is rare.
Incorrect.
Quote: Obtaining it is what the science is about, with all its funding and technologies.
Correct.
Quote:Demanding such a thing from a guy in the street is a little unrealistic.
Incorrect. If you make a claim, be ready to support it.
Quote:Nobody ever asked me for objective evidence IRL, personally. I think people in daily life just know that we often can't even prove where we had been a moment ago, much less the mysteries of nature. It's not like we're walking laboratories. We can either choose to believe a claimant (based on our own experience) or suspend our judgement. I never really saw anyone saying "As long as you don't bring objective evidence, I say you're full of shit and you're trying to deceive me." That's basically a social suicide Wink
Incorrect. Maybe among the unenlightened people in your social circle. I hang out with intelligent, educated people.
Quote:Btw, I wouldn't underestimate placebo effect. With chemotherapy clinical trials, 30% of patients on placebo lost their hair. Is placebo really an explanation, if its mechanism of working is unknown?

The placebo effect seems real, is not well-understood, but certainly is not an ethical treatment option.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-12-2011, 03:48 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
There, you see Luminon, now that you have explained a little more about your thoughts, now you make more sense, I like the way you tried to explain this with dark energy and the link you gave is one of the steps in scientific disproving or proving if things like this exist. Of course, this can all be just a Photoshop, but this is the way these things should be explained, in a lab, with doctors and machines to measure the changes in human body. If we can have the LHC and observe the Big Bang, I'm sure we can detect these energies if they exist. It's just a matter of giving it a try and finding it, but until they are found and confirmed, I will remain skeptical and use the chiropractic rather than some guy that can manipulate my energy and make my back stop hurting. I need to set my bones straight, not correct some energy. Smile

P.S.
If these things are real, then it is suppose to help even the most skeptical people, with no placebo effect. So, find people like me and try to help them, then we will see how powerful someone is, it's much easier to fool someone who believes in all this.

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24-12-2011, 08:09 AM
RE: Emperors new energy
(22-12-2011 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  Incorrect. Maybe among the unenlightened people in your social circle. I hang out with intelligent, educated people.[/b][/color]
I don't have a social circle worthy of the name. All around here it's an equivalent of Bible belt full of rednecks, only people prefer to be more private about their religious fix. They compensate it on soccer and hockey hooliganship and getting drunk.

Looks like all intelligent people around are middle-aged or older. All the eggheads of my age ran away to university and I will follow them as soon as I can.
So, what kind of place do you hang out in? What kind of people? What about girls there? I want to live in a place like that, only somewhere closer.

(23-12-2011 03:48 AM)Filox Wrote:  There, you see Luminon, now that you have explained a little more about your thoughts, now you make more sense, I like the way you tried to explain this with dark energy and the link you gave is one of the steps in scientific disproving or proving if things like this exist. Of course, this can all be just a Photoshop, but this is the way these things should be explained, in a lab, with doctors and machines to measure the changes in human body. If we can have the LHC and observe the Big Bang, I'm sure we can detect these energies if they exist. It's just a matter of giving it a try and finding it, but until they are found and confirmed, I will remain skeptical and use the chiropractic rather than some guy that can manipulate my energy and make my back stop hurting. I need to set my bones straight, not correct some energy. Smile

If these things are real, then it is suppose to help even the most skeptical people, with no placebo effect. So, find people like me and try to help them, then we will see how powerful someone is, it's much easier to fool someone who believes in all this.
The problem with "energies" is, that there's not much to show off. No limbs growing back. Or so I thought. Look at this video, what these Japanese guys can do is amazing, they make a tumor disappear in 3 minutes and it was 8 cm across. Doesn't look like Photoshop to me, maybe a staged film, I don't know. But they do what other healers do, only much better. I couldn't imagine such a rapid change is possible.


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25-12-2011, 09:26 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(24-12-2011 08:09 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I couldn't imagine such a rapid change is possible.


...and what do they say about things that seem too good to be true?

Here's a hint; it's not "Give these guys your money, now!".
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26-12-2011, 04:20 PM
RE: Emperors new energy
(25-12-2011 09:26 PM)Elcarch Wrote:  
(24-12-2011 08:09 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I couldn't imagine such a rapid change is possible.
...and what do they say about things that seem too good to be true?

Here's a hint; it's not "Give these guys your money, now!".
Was there such a statement in the presentation? I didn't notice.

Anyway, this is what sometimes happen in science, right? Make an early prototype or demonstration of principle of something that could be awesome in 5 years of further development. Ask for lots of funding. Then never let yourself be heard of again, for whatever reason.
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