Empircal Evidence
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27-04-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
(27-04-2017 05:38 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(27-04-2017 05:35 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Having no evidence for your beliefs makes evidence unnecessary. Got it.

That's pretty much the same argument Yogi_Bear (aka A_(non)Thinking_Theist) is using in another thread. it must be the latest talking point in thiest circles.

Not new, I heard it in the '60s. Most of my relatives are, at best, rabidly religious. It's The Lazy Way Out.
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27-04-2017, 06:02 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
Walluin, if someone believed they owned your car or house or perhaps that they were married to your significant other and acted on these beliefs purely based on faith, would you have a problem with it ?

Would you demand some kind of evidence ?

"He's stealing your car"
--"it's OK, he believes he owns it."

"He's moving into your house."
--"Quite alright. His belief that this is his house is just part of his religion. I respect that."

"He's fucking your spouse."
--"Do you have any evidence of that ?"

As atheists, we can let some things slide when it comes to religions, but when those same religious nut jobs start affecting what my child learns in school or wants to pass laws that affect people I care about, then that's when we have to take a stand and question.

"Why the fuck do you believe this when there is no evidence to believe ? Why would you accept that something is true when there is nothing true about it ?"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-04-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
Having no evidence for your beliefs only makes you a nut job without any ability to discern fact from fantasy.

I believe Mozart & Elvis are still alive.
They are members of an immortal race.
No evidence. I believe it on faith.


I believe the moon is made of cheese.
"This is demonstrably wrong."
I will ignore all of your so called evidence and believe that your evidence is a lie meant to test my faith.

--------
This is what faith does. It makes you believe things that aren't true. It makes you ignore science.
It binds you to a fantasy and blinds you to reality.

In a few years we may discover that religion is a bacterial brain infection.
Before we start chopping the heads off the religious, we might want to wait for evidence of that.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-04-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
Yeah whatever, I'm just saying 'Show me the evidence Jerry!' has become an old record to me,
The whole point of their stupid idea is that they have no evidence, and evidence would destroy it.
Of the Abrahamic religions Faith is integral to their religion, its all a test of whether you will believe it
with no evidence, even with damning evidence pointing against it.
Yeah and if some nut was affecting my life with his belief I would quickly and possibly physically deal with it.
I wouldn't challenge him to a theological debate about it.

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27-04-2017, 08:31 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
(27-04-2017 08:25 AM)Walluin Wrote:  Yeah whatever, I'm just saying 'Show me the evidence Jerry!' has become an old record to me,
The whole point of their stupid idea is that they have no evidence, and evidence would destroy it.
Of the Abrahamic religions Faith is integral to their religion, its all a test of whether you will believe it
with no evidence, even with damning evidence pointing against it.
Yeah and if some nut was affecting my life with his belief I would quickly and possibly physically deal with it.
I wouldn't challenge him to a theological debate about it.
I know exactly what you mean and agree with you. Going after a Christian and asking them for evidence just doesn't wash with 99% of them. There's even a verse (sure of it) that says without faith it's impossible to please God. Atheists are probably correct in asking for evidence, but it's not going to phase most Christians, not unless they're already questioning that faith.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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27-04-2017, 08:33 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
(27-04-2017 08:25 AM)Walluin Wrote:  Yeah whatever, I'm just saying 'Show me the evidence Jerry!' has become an old record to me,
The whole point of their stupid idea is that they have no evidence, and evidence would destroy it.
Of the Abrahamic religions Faith is integral to their religion, its all a test of whether you will believe it
with no evidence, even with damning evidence pointing against it.
Yeah and if some nut was affecting my life with his belief I would quickly and possibly physically deal with it.
I wouldn't challenge him to a theological debate about it.

Walluin, what is the point of what you're saying? The part in bold seems to imply you'd attempt to beat up somebody bothering you with religion Anyway, yes "evidence" is an old record, I'll give you that, but that the basis of all things really. [All real things anyway]. It's why stuff like Evolution is accepted and Bigfoot isn't, for example.

Evolution has truck loads of evidence behind it, all stemming from a guy suggesting an idea, and his mate saying "Oh yeah? prove is Darwin!". Whilst Bigfoot has it's believers, yet there is no REAL evidence for it, except a garbage pail load of blurry images .

It's the go to, because evidence of anything, is the starting point of ALL claims. Whilst the religious can just say "I'm ok with a deity in the clouds controlling my life", any sane human being would say "But why should I believe though? What is the basis for this claim? and how can we know is real?".

I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
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27-04-2017, 08:44 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
Some people aren't too concerned with what is true. They care more about what makes them feel comfortable, and actively want to protect their beliefs from scrutiny. If someone doesn't care what is real and what isn't, you can't have much of a discussion.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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27-04-2017, 08:51 AM
Empircal Evidence
(27-04-2017 12:13 AM)Walluin Wrote:  This is always the go to for atheists, seems a stupid argument to me.
Religions are based on Faith and Belief. In some cases it is actually the entire
point of their religions to have no evidence and use their faith.
If the evidence was ever produced then their religions would no longer be...
as the evidence would make it science.
Yet I'm always hearing this, "Oh you believe in a god? where's the evidence?"
Seems a circular argument that's pointless.


In the first place, it's not a circular argument.

In the second place. Asking for evidence would indeed be pointless if believers admitted that their beliefs weren't grounded in facts and relied on opinion only. But many fervent believers insist that their beliefs are facts. Facts require evidence in order to be considered facts. You appear to be trying to give believers an out by allowing them to claim that their beliefs are factual and require no factual support.

While it's all well and good to claim that believers have faith but in practice it's a different story. To test this seeming reliance on faith alone, look at the fervency with which Christians insist that the shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus. There is no historical evidence of the man depicted in the gospel accounts, so assumption one is out. The scientific evidence supports a medieval origin for the shroud and not a first century origin. But facts don't appear to matter to the believer. In that regard their insistence that their religious beliefs are fact-based is mistaken and is more a sign of irrationality.
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27-04-2017, 09:26 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
If a theist wants to believe a fairy tale based purely on faith without any evidence, that's their business. But some of the discussions that you refer to consist of theists telling *me* that I should (or must) believe it, too. In that discussion, they must provide evidence if they want to change my mind. Going further, some theists want to legislate based on their belief. That too should require evidence. And, as Rachel said, theists sometimes claim to have evidence when what they have is just more belief mislabeled as evidence. So, if you discuss this stuff with theists at all, there are plenty of cases where the discussion can and should be about the lack of evidence.
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27-04-2017, 09:37 AM
RE: Empircal Evidence
Yeah I hear what your saying, but maybe this discussion should more be about our lack of belief more than their lack of evidence, as the lack of evidence doesn't really phase them at all, no atheist ever won a debate with a religious nut by saying well if god exists show him to me then. You might be thinking "yeah I showed him, just pwned that Christian with the evidence play' but never has a Christian thought "oh gee that guys right I cant prove jesus with science I better stop believing."

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