End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
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23-03-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
I am balancing on a sword here.

His human rights record is appauling, but he brought wealth to his people and his opponents werent any better.

I would argue that the enemies of Singapore are in fact the worst scum of the region and it is a shame that not a single one of them was brought to justice.

For those who dont know, during the 1960s there was a massive antichinese and anti secular campaign in South East Asia.

It was spurred by islamic demagogs in Brunai, Malaysia and Indonesia and resulted in the expulsion and dicrimination of millions of Chinese in Malaysia and Brunai.

But worst of all was in Indonesia where millions of Chinese were butcherd in an unparalleld and horrific genocide for which nobody was ever brought to justice.

Meanwhile to the North, Chaos was ingulfing Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia through 50 years of war and the horrors of Cambodian stalinism.

Singapore was essentialy born out of this chaos. A Chinese majority secular state surrounded by hostile muslim fanatics in the south and stalinists to the north.

And despite the human rights record, when you keep all of the mentioned in mind, you cant help but admire to where Singapore was brought by it`s leaders.

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23-03-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
Well said Germans.

LKY used Israel as a template (even as far as getting Israeli military experts to train the troops in the early days) which is why there is still national service.

So his view was essentially: If you have ISIS on your doorstep ... fuck human rights!

I wonder, had it not been for this man's influence, would the current Malaysian government be so openly anti-ISIS?

Consider

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23-03-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(23-03-2015 05:41 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Well said Germans.

LKY used Israel as a template (even as far as getting Israeli military experts to train the troops in the early days) which is why there is still national service.

So his view was essentially: If you have ISIS on your doorstep ... fuck human rights!

I wonder, had it not been for this man's influence, would the current Malaysian government be so openly anti-ISIS?

Consider

If it wasnt for this man there might be an apartheit state in Malaysia in which Chinese are second class citizens.

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23-03-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(23-03-2015 10:01 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 09:48 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Quite a remarkable man. Not perfect, natch, but who is, right?

I wonder, back in the 1960s, what people thought of him compared to his contemporaries in the other south/east asian states, and how those views have evolved; Park and Marcos and the rest of the cold-war crowd. After all, once upon a time people spoke of Mandela and Mugabe as being in the same category...

I wonder that too.

I depends which taxi driver you talk to. Big Grin At least one that I've chatted with was still angry about "not being allowed" (disincentivised) to have a second child when that short-lived policy was in place.

LKY's most definitely in the Mandela-camp in terms of legacy and popular affection.

But then, I know many a Chinese girl who think of Mao as a national hero and knew not what I was on about when I mentioned "the purges".

Memories, of the young, are short.

While in China I learned to be very careful about who I brought up the subject of Mao with. The most fanatical supporters of his legacy knew little more than the bullshit they were fed in school.

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23-03-2015, 11:04 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2015 11:12 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(23-03-2015 10:01 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But then, I know many a Chinese girl who think of Mao as a national hero and knew not what I was on about when I mentioned "the purges".

Memories, of the young, are short.

About Mao, I think the way how he conducted these "purges" are overall pretty sh**ty. I saw you call Li's ruling Singapore's 5.4 million population governance that you learned a lot from. What would you call ruling 1300 million people ? Possibly not something simple as "easy, peasy, Japanesey", is it?

About Li Guangyao, many of my peers and I think of him much higher above Mendela.

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24-03-2015, 12:31 AM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(23-03-2015 07:21 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 10:01 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ...
Memories, of the young, are short.

While in China I learned to be very careful about who I brought up the subject of Mao with. The most fanatical supporters of his legacy knew little more than the bullshit they were fed in school.

Which goes for Jesus too, methinks.

But yes, the degree with which one should support the policies of Chairman Mao is in direct proportion to the cuteness of aforementioned fanatical Chinese girl

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24-03-2015, 12:52 AM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(23-03-2015 11:04 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(23-03-2015 10:01 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But then, I know many a Chinese girl who think of Mao as a national hero and knew not what I was on about when I mentioned "the purges".

Memories, of the young, are short.

About Mao, I think the way how he conducted these "purges" are overall pretty sh**ty. I saw you call Li's ruling Singapore's 5.4 million population governance that you learned a lot from. What would you call ruling 1300 million people ? Possibly not something simple as "easy, peasy, Japanesey", is it?

About Li Guangyao, many of my peers and I think of him much higher above Mendela.

That's actually a fair point. That's also a governance model from which we can learn a great deal.

In both cases, the question has to be asked, "Did the ends justify the means?"

And, of course, in these cases, both the ends and the means were different.

One, encouraged and grew the intellectual class resulting in a highly educated workforce and the other destroyed the intellectual elite and created a more easily controllable populace.

Are you saying that the Singapore model is not scalable to a larger population? I see no evidence that it could not be.

I'm not sure that there is a league table of nation builders but if there were, both guys would be near the top.
Mandela achieved his results within a shorter time and with less direct control (while in prison); LKY perhaps achieved more but it could be argued was starting from a different position i.e. he had the support of the British as opposed to Mandela having resistance from a colonial power.

Hats off to both, I say.

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24-03-2015, 05:29 AM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(24-03-2015 12:52 AM)DLJ Wrote:  That's actually a fair point. That's also a governance model from which we can learn a great deal.

One, encouraged and grew the intellectual class resulting in a highly educated workforce and the other destroyed the intellectual elite and created a more easily controllable populace.

Are you saying that the Singapore model is not scalable to a larger population? I see no evidence that it could not be.

I am not quit sure whether you did mean "fair" or not, i.e., learn positive things from Mao's governance (I assume that you have learnt positive things from Li's governance). And I was not saying "not scalable". On the contrary, I was saying that if 5.4 million people's journey from third world to first word gives you positive meanings, 1300 million people's journey from a half-colony opium-pandemic society to a GDP second-place, if not strictly scalable, should at least mean something positive, should it ?

Should ends justify means ? I don't know, but that's normally how we interpret things and learn lessons. As you have learned a lot from Li's governance, I have learned a lot from how pathetic China was in the late 18th and early 19th century, how war-torned China was in the 1940s, how Marxism combined with China's actual situation helped Mao and his team become the final winner, how China built a complete industrial system in the 1950s - 1970s, how the Party failed when it choked on doctrinarism and internal struggles, how elements of liberalism made the nation thrive in the 1980s, how bad it hurt when prices skyrocketed and workers were massively laid off in the 1990s, how income inequality keeps growing while tycoons cried again for less regulation and control in the first ten years of this century. Though young, I remember quite a bit of history.

Yet all that difference between us is too trivial. If we were Sierra Leoneans for the next three days, we should have locked ourselves inside already.

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24-03-2015, 05:33 AM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
A benevolent dictator is the most efficient and effective form of government.

And--

If he turns out to be a complete dickwad - you only need one bullet to rectify the problem.


Smile

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24-03-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: End of an Era... Farewell to the Benevolent Dictator.
(24-03-2015 05:33 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  A benevolent dictator is the most efficient and effective form of government.

And--

If he turns out to be a complete dickwad - you only need one bullet to rectify the problem.


Smile

The secondary problem being that whoever delivers that bullet, benevolent or not, then gets to assume control.

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