Engagement rings....WHY?
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06-01-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 09:57 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 09:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160106/dc816f0b7806056f9d7e0

[Image: image0061.jpg]
Bwahahaha
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06-01-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(04-01-2016 02:53 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(04-01-2016 01:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Adam knows the answer. Wink
Yep. But even if the diamond tradition were true (or if diamonds actually had value and weren't part of a corrupt monopoly that's terrible on many levels), I still have problems with the concept in general.

Assuming you're dating someone currently, do they share your views about it? If at one point you two desire to get married, and you know she likes the traditional idea of the guy getting her a wedding ring, would it be worth it to protest, or would you just grin and bear it?

I grew up in a tradition where jewelry itself was frowned upon. Many of my friends who got married never exchanged rings at the their weddings. Though most of them wear them. Some of us like the tradition, some of us are somewhat indifferent to it.

I have a cousin whose indifferent to it, but wears a ring regardless, primarily because he travels a lot for work, and he doesn't like the idea of being perceived as a philanderer, as a man trying to hide the fact that he's married. I remember one time forgetting my wedding ring on the way to work and I was worried that folks might think we got a divorced.

I personally like the tradition, but to each his own.

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06-01-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 05:52 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 02:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  A little rock set into gold is romance? Not to me. It's cold to the touch.

You are not required to find it romantic.

This whole discussion is both interesting and sad. (Apart from being funny)

You are not your partner. Your partner isn't you.

You and your partner will grow in many different directions in a life time. It's not always going to be the same direction, you will want to pursue things she doesn't like or approve of, and she will want to pursue things you don't like or approve of.

If the marriage is to last, if both people are going to come into their own and grow and thrive, you have to have each others back. Your reward is a happy partner who thrives in their own way and always has your back, too.

Being right is not going to do shit for you in a relationship. Understanding your partner is, and even if you can't understand his/her position on something, you still need to respect it.

If you can't respect your partner, or they can't respect you, it's not going to be easy and one or the other will feel stifled.

So, each of you is entitled to their own opinions and feelings, regardless of whether the other agrees. There is no being "right", this is not a debate. This is a support system for two people.

Finances are something that needs to be discussed, and they are not something one likes or dislikes, they are facts both have to deal with. If you can't look at them together and arrive at mutual decisions, you are headed for trouble.

If she wants a ring and you want a motor cycle, you get together and discuss how you can make both possible. Both of you need to be happy within the frame of your circumstances, and approval of the wishes of another isn't what matters. Making each other happy is.

Yeah, all of that is obvious, thanks. I was simply giving my own opinion about a social tradition. Didn't you see the part where I said I'd buy her a ring if it made her happy? I guess not.
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06-01-2016, 10:41 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 06:28 AM)julep Wrote:  What about the fact that traditionally, it's the bride's side of the family that pays for the wedding? Often much more expensive than the engagement ring. Those social expectations are just as strong on the woman's side, and the price of the engagement ring could just as easily be seen to reduce the woman to that dollar figure.

A fair point, and another area where burdens should be shared. Of course, my family ain't buying the engagement ring -- that's coming straight out of my pocket, Mom and Dad aren't helping out. The two expectations are similarly silly, but one lands more squarely on the male.

(06-01-2016 06:28 AM)julep Wrote:  Regarding going dutch in general, I don't think it is déclassé at all, and I wish more men were comfortable with the idea.

I wish I were, to be honest. But imagine broaching the topic to his date -- what might her response be? -- in the context of the social view of Men the Provider. In one sense, that is how the tradition of a diamond ring makes the most sense: it demonstrates a man's ability to provide resources for the family. And in a smaller but similar and still very real sense, a man is socially programmed to feel uncomfortable asking a woman to pay her share of the tab. It makes him look impecunious, or even worse, cheap.


(06-01-2016 06:28 AM)julep Wrote:  Back in my dating days, after a couple of horrible but educational experiences, I decided never to date a man who wasn't comfortable with the woman paying for her share (with money). I paid half on everything but the first date--the first date "rule" for me, personally, is that whoever asks, pays. Anything physical that happened with a guy was because I wanted it to, not because of any sense of obligation to the guy for buying me dinner. Just to be clear, I am not a man-hater or someone who had difficulty in getting a date. I found plenty of great guys who understood and accepted my position.

Nah, I know you're not. For that matter, I'm not a man's-rights breast-beater, because all of this behavior is in the end voluntary, as you note here: we choose to participate in these rituals, and we choose to express our love in socially traditional ways -- or we don't.

I was raised in a very old-fashioned household where my dad taught me that a man not biting the bullet for the sake of the woman's happiness -- no matter how deep or shallow that happiness might be -- that if a man wouldn't sacrifice for his woman, he ain't much of a man. That's how I approach things, for myself: when I'm in a relationship, much of my self-worth derives from how happy I'm making my woman. I'm learning that is not always a good thing for me.
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06-01-2016, 10:42 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 10:25 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 05:52 AM)Dom Wrote:  You are not required to find it romantic.

This whole discussion is both interesting and sad. (Apart from being funny)

You are not your partner. Your partner isn't you.

You and your partner will grow in many different directions in a life time. It's not always going to be the same direction, you will want to pursue things she doesn't like or approve of, and she will want to pursue things you don't like or approve of.

If the marriage is to last, if both people are going to come into their own and grow and thrive, you have to have each others back. Your reward is a happy partner who thrives in their own way and always has your back, too.

Being right is not going to do shit for you in a relationship. Understanding your partner is, and even if you can't understand his/her position on something, you still need to respect it.

If you can't respect your partner, or they can't respect you, it's not going to be easy and one or the other will feel stifled.

So, each of you is entitled to their own opinions and feelings, regardless of whether the other agrees. There is no being "right", this is not a debate. This is a support system for two people.

Finances are something that needs to be discussed, and they are not something one likes or dislikes, they are facts both have to deal with. If you can't look at them together and arrive at mutual decisions, you are headed for trouble.

If she wants a ring and you want a motor cycle, you get together and discuss how you can make both possible. Both of you need to be happy within the frame of your circumstances, and approval of the wishes of another isn't what matters. Making each other happy is.

Yeah, all of that is obvious, thanks. I was simply giving my own opinion about a social tradition. Didn't you see the part where I said I'd buy her a ring if it made her happy? I guess not.

I don't think I'd want a ring from someone who was begrudgingly giving it to me. If the person giving me the ring thought it was meaningless and "cold" of me to want one, then I certainly wouldn't want a ring from someone like that. The ring itself takes on meaning (even a $5 ring) because it means something to the person who is giving the ring--as well as the person receiving the ring. YMMV.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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06-01-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  All of the things you mentioned are also romantic. But both people having a ring that symbolizes their love for each other is cold to the touch? Sorry don't agree with you there. I agree two rings are excessive, but an engagement ring that you use for your wedding ring, to symbolize your love and your wedding vows--I guess I don't see how that is cold to the touch?

Touch the metal.
(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Not all women want a $3,000 ring. I think that is painting with a very broad brush.

I disagree. While we can quibble about the dollar figure, it's a fact that engagement rings are generally expensive. Three large seems to be about the median price for one. The first page of Kay Jewelers' engagement rings listing has 24 rings on it. Five are under one thousand dollars. Most are between one and two thousand dollars. Three are five thousand dollars or more.

(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  On a side note, I don't believe it has to always be the man who gives the engagement ring to the woman. IMO, it should be whoever asks the other to marry them. If I asked a boyfriend to marry me, I would give him the ring.

He'd be a fool to say no, even if all you had to offer were a twist-tie. Smile
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06-01-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 09:29 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  On a side note, I don't believe it has to always be the man who gives the engagement ring to the woman. IMO, it should be whoever asks the other to marry them. If I asked a boyfriend to marry me, I would give him the ring.
Yeah, but you would never do that (propose), nor would you be expected to Tongue.

Why not?

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Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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06-01-2016, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2016 10:59 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 10:42 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 10:25 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Yeah, all of that is obvious, thanks. I was simply giving my own opinion about a social tradition. Didn't you see the part where I said I'd buy her a ring if it made her happy? I guess not.

I don't think I'd want a ring from someone who was begrudgingly giving it to me. If the person giving me the ring thought it was meaningless and "cold" of me to want one, then I certainly wouldn't want a ring from someone like that. The ring itself takes on meaning (even a $5 ring) because it means something to the person who is giving the ring--as well as the person receiving the ring. YMMV.

I'm not sure how you got "begrudging" out of my post, but I wouldn't look on it like that. That word-choice implies a butthurt I wouldn't feel. Just so we're clear, I have bought an engagement ring. I did so happily, even though I don't think it's an equitable tradition. It didn't even chap my hide to get on my knee when I proposed! I didn't mind it because I loved her and wanted to make her happy.

That is a different thing than an Internet discussion in the abstract, and it'd be nice if people remembered that.
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06-01-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 10:48 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  All of the things you mentioned are also romantic. But both people having a ring that symbolizes their love for each other is cold to the touch? Sorry don't agree with you there. I agree two rings are excessive, but an engagement ring that you use for your wedding ring, to symbolize your love and your wedding vows--I guess I don't see how that is cold to the touch?

Touch the metal.
(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Not all women want a $3,000 ring. I think that is painting with a very broad brush.

I disagree. While we can quibble about the dollar figure, it's a fact that engagement rings are generally expensive. Three large seems to be about the median price for one. The first page of Kay Jewelers' engagement rings listing has 24 rings on it. Five are under one thousand dollars. Most are between one and two thousand dollars. Three are five thousand dollars or more.

(06-01-2016 08:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  On a side note, I don't believe it has to always be the man who gives the engagement ring to the woman. IMO, it should be whoever asks the other to marry them. If I asked a boyfriend to marry me, I would give him the ring.

He'd be a fool to say no, even if all you had to offer were a twist-tie. Smile

Engagement rings can be expensive--but not every woman wants an expensive one. I don't like gawdy jewelry. I also do a lot of yoga, backpacking, and Krav Maga. I would like to wear my engagement/wedding ring and never take it off. Wearing a huge expensive ring makes that difficult if you lead an active lifestyle like I do.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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06-01-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: Engagement rings....WHY?
(06-01-2016 10:55 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 10:42 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I don't think I'd want a ring from someone who was begrudgingly giving it to me. If the person giving me the ring thought it was meaningless and "cold" of me to want one, then I certainly wouldn't want a ring from someone like that. The ring itself takes on meaning (even a $5 ring) because it means something to the person who is giving the ring--as well as the person receiving the ring. YMMV.

I'm not sure how you got "begrudging" out of my post, but I wouldn't look on it like that. That word-choice implies a butthurt I wouldn't feel. Just so we're clear, I have bought an engagement ring. I did so happily, even though I don't think it's an equitable tradition. It didn't even chap my hide to get on my knee when I proposed! I didn't mind it because I loved her and wanted to make her happy.

That is a different thing than an Internet discussion in the abstract, and it'd be nice if people remembered that.

I used the word begrudgingly based on this quote from your post: "A little rock set into gold is romance? Not to me. It's cold to the touch." You are right, it's hard to get a true meaning of things via text on the internet--so maybe I misunderstood your opinion based on that.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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