English Spelling Reform
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12-02-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 02:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 02:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  literacy over communication though?
The written words aren't all that important. The message being conveyed is what is important.

The following is perfectly readable and understandable, and easy to read quickly. The message is conveyed even though the written words have been bastardised and buggered.

http://www.ecenglish.com/learnenglish/le...n-you-read
"I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey ltteer by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too."

Yes, and how you communicate the message textually is through particular words.

I've used that concept before, you cn sl pst plnt f wrds wtht vwls nd cmmnct.

Because when your brain knows the word, you are able to know the word. You're instead in this idea not talking about something that people certainly know. You have adults knowing a word and younger kids taught knowing a word that means the same concept yet is communicated via words differently.

How are you making the world for that kids to know any of these adjusted meanings they are learning are able to be understood when they come across the language. You aren't rearranging letters they know, you're changing words via letters to sound more like they are spoken so a word that doesn't look like it sounds today may be things you won't register at all like a shifted term.

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12-02-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:07 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Did you miss the part where he said "or the melody less nuanced"?
Melody is very different to dynamic range. Dynamic range is the contrast in volume. In particular it means the drums sound less punchy. It doesn't affect the melody at all.

Dynamic range does not apply only to volume, it applies to any information range in a signal.

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12-02-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:10 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 02:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Chinese has something like 50,000 to 60,000 characters.
English has 26 characters.

A complex English character is something like "K" if you can call that complex.
A complex Chinese character is
[Image: chinese_character.jpg]

Sure if you know the history of the character and radicals etc then perhaps it can make it easier for you to remember, but you have to spend the time learning the history or the character and radicals which requires more classes, more study.

Where English uses phonetics, Chinese is more akin to cryptic crosswords where "big learn" means university or "electric brain" means computer.

You may think that the English characters are random, but hell, there are only 26 to remember and they have very few strokes. 26 is easier to remember than 50,000.

True, but there are only just over 200 radicals. While this is still a lot more than letters in the English alphabet, they can still be learned in a matter of months. And as someone who has studied them, when I look at that complex character, I don't see a daunting puzzle. I see 11 distinct radicals, two of which are repeated.
I'm no expert on chinese language but I do know that there is a radical which impact the sound and a radical which impact the meaning.

In English, for the most part we have to deal with recreating the sound on paper. In Chinese, even if you remember the sound you still have to remember the unsounded radicals that go along with the character for you to be able to write it.

In Inglish, you realy dont evin haf to spel it corekly for people to be able to reed it.
A poorly schooled person can get by.
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12-02-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 02:59 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Is the following readable and understandable? Why (and at what extent)? Why not?

þis kyng lay at Camylot vpon Krystmasse
With mony luflych lorde, ledez of þe best,
Rekenly of þe Rounde Table alle þo rich breþer,
With rych reuel ory3t and rechles merþes.
Nope, I couldn't make out most of that.

This king lay at Camelot upon Christmas with music by lorde, listening to the best of, Renkly of the Round Table and the rich barber, with Rich Reuel on the bag pipes.

You did get some words right though. Would you have understood, for example, the word "lay" if you had learned as a kid that this word is written as "lei"? Or the word "with" if you knew it as "wiδ"?

(12-02-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:07 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  Did you miss the part where he said "or the melody less nuanced"?
Melody is very different to dynamic range. Dynamic range is the contrast in volume. In particular it means the drums sound less punchy. It doesn't affect the melody at all.

Are you sure? I've heard tons of badly converted sound files where some original sounds were inaudible.

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12-02-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Melody is very different to dynamic range. Dynamic range is the contrast in volume. In particular it means the drums sound less punchy. It doesn't affect the melody at all.

Dynamic range does not apply only to volume, it applies to any information range in a signal.
How does this impact the melody? It doesn't change the notes A C C F A still remain.
The speed remains true, so how is the melody changed by Dynamic range?
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12-02-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Dynamic range does not apply only to volume, it applies to any information range in a signal.
How does this impact the melody? It doesn't change the notes A C C F A still remain.
The speed remains true, so how is the melody changed by Dynamic range?

Information is lost. Sound is lost. Maybe there is a subtle bell sound in there that you won't hear if you compress the fuck out of a song. It's happened to me.

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12-02-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:17 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Melody is very different to dynamic range. Dynamic range is the contrast in volume. In particular it means the drums sound less punchy. It doesn't affect the melody at all.

Are you sure? I've heard tons of badly converted sound files where some original sounds were inaudible.
We are talking about dynamic range rather than bad conversion.
Dynamic range doesn't impact the melody. I do think Chas took the analogy in the wrong direction in an attempt to support his case.

This is the problem when using analogies, your discussion opponent can go off track if they choose to take that path.

With regards to lyrics they are still there doesn't matter if on tape or cd. With regards to melody it is still there, doesn't matter about tape or cd.

Same can be said of the written word. Even when spelling isn't entirely correct, even if grammar isn't entirely correct. In many cases the message can be correctly understood. It doesn't make sense to be hung up on spelling and grammar when you understand what message is being conveyed.

If you don't understand then it does make sense to call out the ambiguity in order to seek clarification. But it makes no sense to be a spelling or grammar nazi just for the sake of it. You end up disrupting the flow of conversation for no reason.
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12-02-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:25 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How does this impact the melody? It doesn't change the notes A C C F A still remain.
The speed remains true, so how is the melody changed by Dynamic range?

Information is lost. Sound is lost. Maybe there is a subtle bell sound in there that you won't hear if you compress the fuck out of a song. It's happened to me.
The bell sound isn't the melody.

I agree, I don't like this day and age of compression. It makes no sense at all to try and make a CD loud. It is frustrating. But it wasn't the point of the analogy. The analogy has been purposefully taken too far in this instance.
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12-02-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
I have given lectures at places such as The School of audio engineering (SAE) on recording drums. Take my word for it, drums have nothing to do with the English language. Big Grin

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12-02-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: English Spelling Reform
(12-02-2016 03:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 03:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Dynamic range does not apply only to volume, it applies to any information range in a signal.
How does this impact the melody? It doesn't change the notes A C C F A still remain.
The speed remains true, so how is the melody changed by Dynamic range?

Remember, he wrote "...or the melodies less nuanced".

While an A is an A in theory, real music has a complex set of harmonics - that's how you can tell the difference between an A from a piano and one from a trumpet.
The amount of information that represents the waveform is the nuance of which we speak. When that waveform is compressed, information is lost.

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