Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
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16-04-2017, 11:05 PM
Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39617700

Accodring to the BBC, Erdogan won his referendum that would grant him greater power and authonomy. He would be able to declare the State of Emergency, have a measure of control over the judicial branch and appoint minister without having to submit his choice to the parlement. This would of course strengthen his hold on power which he might held unit 2029. I personnaly don't like this at all. I have very little sympathy for Erdogan whose islamist tendency and methods reaks of authoritarianism. What do you think of this?

PS: Is it me, but with the intensification of the bombing of ISIS, the quagmire of Syria, North Korea war threats and now this, we had a shitty week?

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16-04-2017, 11:36 PM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
Quote:Every country has the government it deserves.

Joseph de Maistre


Turkey is no exception.

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17-04-2017, 02:48 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(16-04-2017 11:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  ...
[1] He would be able to declare the State of Emergency
...
[2] have a measure of control over the judicial branch
...
[3] appoint minister without having to submit his choice to the parliament.
...

One and three are as per UK Prime Minister.

The second one is more troubling. I suppose the devil is in the detail there.

Consider

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17-04-2017, 02:49 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
I really don't understand how anyone who voted for this thought it was a good idea? Like, why vote to remove checks and balances? How did he sell this? I'm sure he didn't mention the very real risks - he's already an authoritarian dickhead who hates criticism and the free press, and just like all the others I'm sure he'd love to silence his political opponents. I guess he rather emphasized some aspect of that Turkey needs a strong man now to stand up to foreign threats or some other such bullshit.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-04-2017, 02:50 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(16-04-2017 11:05 PM)epronovost Wrote:  PS: Is it me, but with the intensification of the bombing of ISIS, the quagmire of Syria, North Korea war threats and now this, we had a shitty week?

Every week is a shitty week in Trumpistan. Unless you drink the kool-aid.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-04-2017, 02:59 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(17-04-2017 02:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  How did he sell this?

How do you think he did? To use a pretty recent example of this kind of bullshittery, America first?

He presented the appearance of caring for the little guy and to fight for their wellbeing. And since America doesn't have a monopoly on housing a significant number of stupid and uneducated people who love to wave a flag, that was his winning ticket.

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17-04-2017, 04:00 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(17-04-2017 02:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  The second one is more troubling. I suppose the devil is in the detail there.
Consider

Turkey will be transformed from a parliamentary democracy (like Germany) to a presidential system (like the US). However without any noteworthy control of the president by the parliament or other necessary checks and balances.

A law will be abolished by which the president can not be simultaneously be leader of a political party. Something Erdogan factually already is. Parliament has no say in appointing ministers and no say in putting up the budget. The only way for the parliament to reject the presidents budget is by self dissolution and having new elections (= parliamentary *suicide* Facepalm ). In general new elections can be triggered by both, president and parliament, but parliamnet needs a 60% majoriy to do so.

President can be elected twice for 5y each. However: If during the second term new elections are called for (see above: by the president for example Consider Wink ) he can have a thrid term, totalling 15y.

The president can, by his whim, declare a "state of necessity" (?) on Turkey. This was a loophole in Weimar and was (ab)used in the later years frequently, leading to its demise. If he uses this power to make laws by decree, they are invalid within 3 months unless they have been "discussed" and approved by parliament.. alternatively parliament can only reject presidential decrees by having a law of its own up its sleeve. Decrees can be put forward to the supreme court if at least 20% of the parliament disagrees with the decree, but supreme court has only 2 months to judge after the decrees are in effect, which is basically *immediately*. As we all know, (supreme) courts usually have their hands full with other shit, so it can be expected they may fail to keep the timing, and well....most of them are appointed by the president anyway. Blink

He can appoint judges to the "council of judges and state attorneys" (a kind of *pool* for the turkish state to recruit judges and attorneys from). Since supreme court justices are recruited from this council as well, he effectivley gains control of the supreme court indirectly. 7 of 13 members of the council are supposed to be appointed by the parliament (at least 60% majority required), see below. While all other changes of constitution will be in effect only until 2019, the new appointment of the conplete "coucil" is supposed to be done within the next 30 days.

Problem with this is: Erdogans party is already by far the strongest party in the parliament (ca. 50%), and he is given the legal tools now to further strengthen its/his position and weaken any opposition. The 60% margin also looks only *ok* as a part of checks and balances...at first glance. One needs to know that Erdogans AKP has an ally, the MHP, which, surprise, surprise, counts ca. 11% of total votes, so in total he can mount up to ...60% in parliament. Elections for president and parliament are also held simultaneously, thus it is ensured that the president will have a majority in parliament when elected (all he needs for total control is having more than 60% majority). This makes any supposed control of the president by the parliament (if there is any left with the new reform) moot and further ensures control of the judiciary (see above). Cool

Investigations on the president can not only be done regarding treason, but regarding any breach of law now. However, again 60% majority is required.

P.S.: The average of all turkish votes was 51% "yes", however of the 1.5mio turks in Germany ca. 60% voted "yes". Shocking Facepalm

The european Venice Comisison, a council comprised of legal experts from Ireland, Czech Republic, Belgium, Poland, Finland and the USA concluded:
Quote:The Commission notes that by removing necessary checks and balances, the amendments would not follow the model of a democratic presidential system based on the separation of powers, and instead would risk degeneration into an authoritarian presidential system.

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17-04-2017, 04:04 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(17-04-2017 02:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  I really don't understand how anyone who voted for this thought it was a good idea? Like, why vote to remove checks and balances? How did he sell this? I'm sure he didn't mention the very real risks - he's already an authoritarian dickhead who hates criticism and the free press, and just like all the others I'm sure he'd love to silence his political opponents. I guess he rather emphasized some aspect of that Turkey needs a strong man now to stand up to foreign threats or some other such bullshit.

Like usual:

1. Fearmongering and (ab) using peoples dissatisfaction with checks and balances which often makes your government and parliament look *weak and confusing*. Thus creating the idea of a "strong leader" being necessary for a clear political diretion to be headed.
2. Presenting himself as this strong leader
3. Calling everybody who disagrees with him a terrorist or enemy of the state, pointing out furhter need for a strong man
4. go to 2. Laugh out load

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17-04-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
Turkey lost the moment they elected this thing. Ataturk must be rolling in his grave, poor man Sad

Still, the results were not as high as he hoped they would. Cold comfort, really, but still...

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17-04-2017, 07:50 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(17-04-2017 02:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  I really don't understand how anyone who voted for this thought it was a good idea? Like, why vote to remove checks and balances? How did he sell this? I'm sure he didn't mention the very real risks - he's already an authoritarian dickhead who hates criticism and the free press, and just like all the others I'm sure he'd love to silence his political opponents. I guess he rather emphasized some aspect of that Turkey needs a strong man now to stand up to foreign threats or some other such bullshit.

This is Turkey we're talking about here remember.
There one of those countries that likes to play dress-up when it comes to being "westernized", but we all know what's beneath the frilly dress and poorly applied make-up.

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