Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
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17-04-2017, 08:15 AM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
(17-04-2017 07:50 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  This is Turkey we're talking about here remember.
There one of those countries that likes to play dress-up when it comes to being "westernized", but we all know what's beneath the frilly dress and poorly applied make-up.

Yes, this is Turkey. Should I name all the countries that have recently fallen to loud mouthed nationalists? The US being number one once again. That's what Erdogan is. A nationalist, doing exactly the same Trump has said to do. To chase the illusion of national greatness. You should try and listen to what he says and compare it to the whole world going mad electing some borderline fascists.

Apart from 51 percent not being a landslide victory. It shows a country divided smack in the middle.

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17-04-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: Erdogan won, did Turkey lost?
I have had, perhaps, a bit more insight into this situation than most as I am friendly with some high ranking Turkish army officers and have managed to get a bit of info from them.

The problem which the secularists in Turkey have is that the population of Muslims is increasing and they are becoming more able to control parliament. The Kemalists have been terrified of this for many years and the whole point of Attaturk's ending of the Caliphate was to get rid of Islamic control of the country.

If one considers that the control of Turkey has, ultimately, constitutionally, been vested in the military since Turkey became a nation-state, then one can see that there may be an alternate view of what might be going on.

Prior to the attempted coup, the army gave Erdogan an entire battalion for his protection. After the coup, the battalion was removed. Those arrested after the coup were Gulenists, who Erdogan previously supported. They are akin to the Muslim Brotherhood and their judges and prosecutors had locked up the most senior members of the secularist Kemalist military. These officers were released prior to the attempted coup and swore to get revenge.

My friends made it clear that they supported Erdogan's AKP party. Their attitude was that the Kemalist parties have essentially "blown it" by mismanaging the economy and the economic progress under the AKP party is what has resulted in Erdogan's support, and it's pretty solid, to be honest. The concern they had was that they had no one like Erdogan to lead their parties and the main opposition party is led by a Kurd and Kurds aren't popular so there was no chance unless they got someone like Erdogan.

My gut feeling is that the Kemalists have collared Erdogan and put him on a leash. They have struck a deal with him to control the Muslim element in Turkish society while at the same time purging the Gulenists, which is the only political group which is Islamist. The Gulenist movement is interesting because it was, like the Muslim Brotherhood, very much supported by the US. In fact, I've been told that the Gulenist network of international schools, in most Islamic countries, is a front for US intelligence operations, in countries where the US has no other organisations it can use for that purpose. Erdogan, in Turkey, has always been considered to be a US puppet...

Since the demise of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and elsewhere, so Ergdogan has turned on the Gulenists. So...I think it's anybody's guess but my own view is that the military have flexed their muscles and are supporting Erdogan because they want to avoid a situation where majority rule in a popular assembly results in an Islamist government. The way to do this is to give powers to the president and to keep the president under control of the military, which is secular.

We are now getting reports of Erdogan moving towards the Kemalists such as this one:

It doesn't make sense to me that this can be anything other than a Kemalist led operation to reinforce their control over Turkish politics. The Turkish constitution and legal system is of German design and Turkey is not an Islamic Republic. There are checks and balances, and it's the Gulenists in the jucidiary and legal system, the Islamists, who are now in jail. These are people who imprisoned Kemalist Generals without due process. I can't see how the mass of the military, who are trained in Kemalist colleges and who idolize Attaturk, could have simply evaporated in the face of an almost completely unorganised Islamic grouping in society.

Of course, the Kemalists are no saints, and they are closely allied to the likes of Mike Flynn and the US military.

Erdogan once said that democracy was a good thing, so long as it took you where you wanted to go. Well, so it seems was Gulenism. now that Gulenism is dead, Muslims have no organisations to support them, except Erdogan and the AKP. One can easily see, now, how Erdogan has used Islamism and Gulenism in the same way he describes his use of democracy, and one can also see how he is now happy to turn to Kemalists, while retaining his control of the Muslim segment of society.

Nope, I'm not sure at all that this is bad for "secularism" in Turkey, in the long run. I see Turkey continuing towards secularism, modernism and the West. The way it is happening, if I am right, shows the fear that secularist Kemalists have of the rise of Islam in Turkey and the need they feel to protect Attaturk's legacy at any cost. (I may be utterly wrong of course)
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