Escaping Spirituality
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02-06-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 05:05 AM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:51 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I have a vivid imagination, I just don't confuse it with reality.

You must go deeper Evil_monster

Yeah, the preponderance of the evidence has tipped to the troll category.

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02-06-2017, 05:28 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 04:56 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:13 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  WELL...



That is the LITERAL definition of "belief". This may be another case of not understanding what belief and FACT/truth means.

Atheists by nature have a hard time "believing" anything, because that's not how it works. We looks at the evidence, and form an opinion on the overall bigger picture. So no, we can't understand your "belief" because you are giving us nothing to work with, other than "I believe..." which is all well and good, but that's not an answer.
There are justified and unjustified beliefs. Beliefs are based on the preponderance of evidence. We can only approach absolute truth, as there is no such thing as totally objective, 100% vetted truth in every possible context.

The overwhelming preponderance of evidence tells me that consciousness is brain-based, an emergent property of electrochemical reactions in our biological brain, and that in those areas where our knowledge is sketchy and/or counterintuitive we have a VERY strong tendency to make stuff up.

Knowing this, I see no good reason to believe in immaterial souls / spirits or discarnate consciousness, and I am comfortable admitting that the "Hard problem" of consciousness remains unsolved so far. It is technically possible, though vanishingly unlikely, that new evidence in the future will demonstrate that there are unseen realms weakly interacting with ours, or even an afterlife. But unless and until there is credible evidence for such things, I do not afford them belief. Not because I'm an atheist ... but because I do not afford belief to the unsubstantiated. My atheism is simply another side effect of not being credulous.

The next development in consciousness that I have my money on, is "hard" or "true general purpose" AI. Sometime in the next century (it may not even take that long) we will find approaches that either achieve that or approach it so closely that there's no practical quibble. And in so doing we will discover at least one possible path to self-aware sentience, and will have huge clues to our own sentience.

Great answer!

I'm very interested in the point at which we consider an AI "self aware", or "conscious". If we don't, what is supposed to be special about organic brains? Considering consciousness is supposed to be an emergent property of brains, I don't see why it can't also be an emergent property of other things. The gap between consciousness and "the experience" is the thing that always stumps me. Science, in my understanding, just says they are the same. But this is very hard to reconcile for me. I have myself doubting whether "an experience" is really anything at all, but paradoxically it's all I actually have.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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02-06-2017, 05:38 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(01-06-2017 08:02 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Way to be a downer. There is such a thing as the supernatural realm. Don't you have an imagination?

Personal experience is one thing but imagination??
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02-06-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(01-06-2017 08:02 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Way to be a downer. There is such a thing as the supernatural realm. Don't you have an imagination?
If all that's required to believe in the supernatural (that which is beyond / outside of / beyond / not a part of nature) is imagination, then, by definition, you are simply imagining it.

You can imagine anything you want. That doesn't make it substantiated or likely to be true. In the case of the useless concept of "supernatural", it doesn't even make it substantiatABLE.
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02-06-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 04:13 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:03 AM)AB517 Wrote:  I, and you show me where I am wrong, feel beliefs should be anchored in the best truths we have. I will look at "oneness" that many people use as a trait of spirituality.
WELL...

Quote:belief
bɪˈliːf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof


That is the LITERAL definition of "belief". This may be another case of not understanding what belief and FACT/truth means.

Atheists by nature have a hard time "believing" anything, because that's not how it works. We looks at the evidence, and form an opinion on the overall bigger picture. So no, we can't understand your "belief" because you are giving us nothing to work with, other than "I believe..." which is all well and good, but that's not an answer.

I am not sure lump all atheist in a group., but I get ya. I don't believe anything until i check it out. but once I do check it out I have to be honest about what the observation points too. I have to assign a number or percent possibility. even if its just one claim is more reasonable than another.

in fact, my experience with theists is that most of them don't believe in omni god either. they understand we are part of a larger, more complex system so to reject that is not silly to them.. But for now, at least in my area, its just easier for them to follow and vote "no" on stupid rules like no gay marriages. Due to life stuff.

literal people are the problem. religious, anti-religious, national, bathroom pass, makes no difference to me, literal people cause problems between beliefs. The regulars don't care and are more then willing to help anybody out.
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02-06-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 04:56 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(02-06-2017 04:13 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  WELL...



That is the LITERAL definition of "belief". This may be another case of not understanding what belief and FACT/truth means.

Atheists by nature have a hard time "believing" anything, because that's not how it works. We looks at the evidence, and form an opinion on the overall bigger picture. So no, we can't understand your "belief" because you are giving us nothing to work with, other than "I believe..." which is all well and good, but that's not an answer.
There are justified and unjustified beliefs. Beliefs are based on the preponderance of evidence. We can only approach absolute truth, as there is no such thing as totally objective, 100% vetted truth in every possible context.

The overwhelming preponderance of evidence tells me that consciousness is brain-based, an emergent property of electrochemical reactions in our biological brain, and that in those areas where our knowledge is sketchy and/or counterintuitive we have a VERY strong tendency to make stuff up.

Knowing this, I see no good reason to believe in immaterial souls / spirits or discarnate consciousness, and I am comfortable admitting that the "Hard problem" of consciousness remains unsolved so far. It is technically possible, though vanishingly unlikely, that new evidence in the future will demonstrate that there are unseen realms weakly interacting with ours, or even an afterlife. But unless and until there is credible evidence for such things, I do not afford them belief. Not because I'm an atheist ... but because I do not afford belief to the unsubstantiated. My atheism is simply another side effect of not being credulous.

The next development in consciousness that I have my money on, is "hard" or "true general purpose" AI. Sometime in the next century (it may not even take that long) we will find approaches that either achieve that or approach it so closely that there's no practical quibble. And in so doing we will discover at least one possible path to self-aware sentience, and will have huge clues to our own sentience.

levels of "valid" or "less valid" based on observations.

When personal opinions are determining the validity of a claim, then people need to be honest about that when stacking them up against the science based observations.

I put my money on biomedical engineering growing a 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch of brain in 200 years or less. That person will not be 'us'. I hope its vegan to tell you the truth.

Your claim of AI in 100 years or less, i don't think so, but its as valid as mine.

That's how it works mord.

I wouldn't say I am "anti AI" so I must put down your belief. That's what I see in religious debates. putting down anything you deem religious (based on a personal opinion) to push an anti religious agenda in spite of data.

And you know that AI is a null term. The is nothing artificial about anything the universe makes. Unless of course one needs to change words to match anti religion.
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02-06-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 03:36 PM)AB517 Wrote:  I wouldn't say I am "anti AI" so I must put down your belief. That's what I see in religious debates. putting down anything you deem religious (based on a personal opinion) to push an anti religious agenda in spite of data.
In spite of what data?

I am not opposed to religion directly, but to religious faith -- the acceptance of asserted truth without a requirement of evidence. I am opposed to a pro-religious agenda in spite of an utter lack of evidence.
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02-06-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(02-06-2017 03:36 PM)AB517 Wrote:  Your claim of AI in 100 years or less, i don't think so, but its as valid as mine.

The guys who are making it think otherwise.

#sigh
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02-06-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
Guys, join Catholicism. It's the one true Christianity and will lead your soul in a good direction. Pray the Rosary every day, read the Mysteries, contemplate why you believe what you believe, including science, religion, philosophy, sex, politics and everything else. Be honest and open with yourself. If you can, take communion and attend Mass. I know it can be boring, you don't have to stay for the whole thing. Make some friends. Get in touch with the God who created you, who loves you and cares for you more than you can imagine. You know there's a God out there, deep down inside....... Angel
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02-06-2017, 07:38 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
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~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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