Escaping Spirituality
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28-05-2017, 09:55 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(28-05-2017 08:58 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 02:12 PM)mordant Wrote:  For another take on woo-free spirituality, see The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality by Andre Compte-Sponville (2007).

Why you would want to abandon true beliefs is somewhat mysterious.

It's messing with my head No
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28-05-2017, 10:26 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
I have a strong hostility for things identified as "spiritual". It's sneaky religion. There's nothing about any of us that isn't physical. I'm not spiritual and neither is anyone else because there are no "spirits".

Fucking shit like "in touch with my spirituality" makes me want to kick someone's teeth in. It means absolutely nothing. And it comes with that same stupid arrogance that religious people have like they're in on some kind of secret. The secret is you're a fucking moron.
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28-05-2017, 10:29 PM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(28-05-2017 10:26 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I have a strong hostility for things identified as "spiritual". It's sneaky religion. There's nothing about any of us that isn't physical. I'm not spiritual and neither is anyone else because there are no "spirits".

Fucking shit like "in touch with my spirituality" makes me want to kick someone's teeth in. It means absolutely nothing. And it comes with that same stupid arrogance that religious people have like they're in on some kind of secret. The secret is you're a fucking moron.

That's the spirit! Tongue
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29-05-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(28-05-2017 08:58 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 02:12 PM)mordant Wrote:  For another take on woo-free spirituality, see The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality by Andre Compte-Sponville (2007).

I read that once. I hated it.
I do not hate it, precisely, though at this point in my life I am unimpressed with it. But I think it at least was, when I read it, at a time I was shedding my particular spirituality, a comfort in that it pointed out that virtue is not sourced in some woo, it is sourced in your own character. That there are fairly universal virtues, not because they are decreed or sustained externally, but because they are beneficial. And that these are still worth nurturing in yourself. That in fact, you now have better reasons to do so than "god told me to".

So I still would commend it to people who are struggling with their exit from theistic spirituality.
(28-05-2017 08:58 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  Generally, a spiritual worldview is held in place by a lot of cogs. There is no secret or short cut that will allow you to unpack all those stops in a quick time frame. You'll likely need to unpack things one at a time until you get to where there's nothing left to unpack. This is a slow process, often accompanied by grieving the loss of those supports, but I think it is a necessary one if you want to free yourself from a spiritual worldview.
This certainly was my experience. A long, slow process that demands a lot of patience ... with yourself as much as with anything.
(28-05-2017 08:58 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  I must confess that the way you pose the question is somewhat strange. Usually people express that they started with some discontent about the substance of a spiritual worldview, and that led them to critically re-evaluate their understandings related to that worldview. You seem to be complaining that the effect of the worldview is what you find objectionable, not its content. If you have no objections to the content of your beliefs, it's going to be difficult for you to come to alternative conclusions. Belief is accepting something as true, and if your beliefs are not objectionable, presumably it's because you find them true. Why you would want to abandon true beliefs is somewhat mysterious.
I think that often before one can see problems with the substance of their illusions, they are confronted with ill effects. That was the impetus for my own deconversion, and I think it's actually quite common: my belief-system says if I do X, the result will by Y, not the dreaded and unthinkable Z. And yet at least half the time, maybe even most of the time, you get Z. This causes you to question X. Personal experience is a great and unavoidable teacher.

I think by the time a lot of questioning theists fetch up someplace like this forum, they have already had their model of reality violated in various ways and are to the place where it has already led them back to questioning the substance and content of their beliefs. But do not suppose that most people's journey begins there. After all, why go through the stress and effort of questioning your beliefs when (1) your beliefs pretty much work for you and (2) you've been told from the cradle that "that way lies madness"?
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29-05-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(28-05-2017 06:12 PM)julep Wrote:  So I think you have to make peace between parts of yourself that feel separated, and then to an equilibrium between your thoughts and emotions. I personally think that there's a big segment of humans who have what I think of as a "god-shaped hole" that's filled in some cases with theology and in other cases with arts, athletics, philosophy, etc. As long as you're honest with yourself about the limitations, egalitarian (e.g. egalitarianism) of your ideas, you'll be fine.

If your personality runs toward spiritualism (mine doesn't), that's not a problem, as long as you try to figure out why is the hole inside you that's being filled, and oppose the direction if it seems to be destructive towards your ideals.

yuppers.

Its ok that we have some conflicting ideas in our heads. Trying to close a gap between logical solution and emotional need can cause some inner turmoil. For me, just being honest that I am choosing an illogical solution to meet my emotional need is fine. So long as I am not infringing on someone else's freedom that is.
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29-05-2017, 06:30 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(28-05-2017 10:26 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I have a strong hostility for things identified as "spiritual". It's sneaky religion. There's nothing about any of us that isn't physical. I'm not spiritual and neither is anyone else because there are no "spirits".

Fucking shit like "in touch with my spirituality" makes me want to kick someone's teeth in. It means absolutely nothing. And it comes with that same stupid arrogance that religious people have like they're in on some kind of secret. The secret is you're a fucking moron.

strong hostility? sneaky religion? Fucking shit? sounds like an adolescent brain.

These are your problems, not theirs. We atheist need to keep an eye on our fellows that think like this. i am guessing You want to impose your beliefs.
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29-05-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(29-05-2017 06:30 AM)AB517 Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 10:26 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I have a strong hostility for things identified as "spiritual". It's sneaky religion. There's nothing about any of us that isn't physical. I'm not spiritual and neither is anyone else because there are no "spirits".

Fucking shit like "in touch with my spirituality" makes me want to kick someone's teeth in. It means absolutely nothing. And it comes with that same stupid arrogance that religious people have like they're in on some kind of secret. The secret is you're a fucking moron.

strong hostility? sneaky religion? Fucking shit? sounds like an adolescent brain.

These are your problems, not theirs. We atheist need to keep an eye on our fellows that think like this. i am guessing You want to impose your beliefs.
Quite possibly immature expression, however, simply calling something bullshit, however indelicately, does not mean one wishes to impose one's beliefs. It is more an expression of not wanting others to impose theirs. We are, after all, obliged to tolerate a lot of religious nonsense from the majority of society; this is bad enough, but it is easy to feel oppressed, and even to actually BE oppressed, by theist overreach.

These things should be "their problem, not mine" but people have a way -- and, yes, a sneaky way -- of making it mine.

Now in my case ... I'm old, happen to be pretty conventional as to lifestyle, and live in a liberal enough community that I basically never personally encounter anything but live-and-let-live, even from theists. The joke in my community is that even the Baptists are liberal. But many -- perhaps most -- unbelievers aren't so fortunate.
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29-05-2017, 09:30 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
Quote:We atheist need to keep an eye on our fellows that think like this.

lol

I'm not in an alliance.
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29-05-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
yeah, immature. and if he is older than 19 I would consider him dangerous. You are right, it doesn't have to mean anything. Its just that my experience with people that are that "direct" are known to be pushy with beliefs also. I bell curve it.

"theist" being larger in number doesn't excuse us of being stupid. He sounds like the type I would toss at a bible literalist. Either way, I would be concerned about the winner.

Youre very correct again, stupid people have a sneaky way of becoming our problem. We can just list the stupid laws we have that have nothing to do with religion.

I tend to side with intentions and not statements of beliefs. Probably like your community does.
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29-05-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: Escaping Spirituality
(29-05-2017 09:30 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:We atheist need to keep an eye on our fellows that think like this.

lol

I'm not in an alliance.

Of that
I have no doubt.
Smile
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