Eternal Punishment
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04-10-2015, 05:42 AM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 05:46 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Eternal Punishment
(03-10-2015 04:09 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(02-10-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  Nobody is going to be punished FOREVER.

Correct.

So long as we're talking about the supposed "after life". No one will be punished because there is no punisher, or exsistance to be punished in.

(02-10-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  There is no such statement in the Bible that someone is going to be punished FOREVER.
The only ones who are going to be punished FOREVER are Lucifer, his demons and sons of Perdition. Atheists(non-believers) are not in this group.

This is from the NIV Bible.

Matthew 25 41-46
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Mark 9: 42-48
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 14 9-12
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


I took the liberty of underline some key lines in each verse.

"yebuh...that's not what they meant.(_insert anything_)"

I pulled the very verses you said weren't in there. I doesn't matter what you "think" they mean. The words and the descriptions are right there.

(02-10-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  But there is term as "eternal punishment". It doesn't mean that someone will be punished forever.
"Eternal punishment" is called "eternal" so people will know that it comes from eternity or eternal God/Gods. It doesn't mean it will last FOREVER.

I would have thought that as a person that knew multiple languages you would have a better understanding on how they worked.

Words have meanings. It's how we can communicate using verbal tones. We use words to describe, feelings, objects, people, actions etc etc. In order for words to work the people that use them frequently need to have an understanding of there meanings.

Let's take this statement for example.

This Apple is Red.

[Image: redapplepic.jpg]

A person that understands the language could interpret this as The Apple (The round fruit of a tree of the rose family, which typically has thin skin and crisp flesh.) is Red (same color as blood, a Coke can, or a stop sign). People around could all agree that the words in this sentence are true. Because the words are being used in there proper context.

Now let's say a person came along and held up the same object and said.

This Apple is Dinosaur.

Even if this person believed this to be true. Everyone around would look in bewilderment. Or for the men in the white coats. If your not using the proper word no one would understand.

"But Sensei, no one would call an Apple a Dinosaur."

And I say "Shut up voice in my head, I trying make a point!"

Ok let's tweek this a little then.

This Apple is Orange.

Colors don't have definitions. We are limited by language to describe them. We can only attribute them to simaler colors. So with no definition a person could say an apple is orange but they still would be wrong in the eyes of everyone around them. Why? Because that word is already associating with specific range of color. Orange wouldn't fall into that.

So back to the subject at hand What is the definition of Eternity.

Latin
Aeternus : without beginning or end.
French
Eternite: time immeasurable
English
Eternity:Time without an end.
Hebrew
נצח: infinite time
Ukrainian
вічність: Час без кінця.

Eternal: Lasting or existing forever, without end or beginning.

We can see in every definition it talks about an extent of time that is unending. No where in any of these words. Latin to the usage in Hebrew dose it say an extent of time, a long time, Ages will pass. It's a continual immeasurable extent of time. YOUR definition is false.

Ancient Hebrews had words for long periods of time. Even slang.

גילים translation Ages.
Definition: A considerable length of time.
"Wow! It's been ages since I've seen you." "And so his memory lived on threw the ages."

40 days 40 nights. Was slang for a really long time. It appears a number of times in the bible when they want to exaggerate time passing. Or when they don't know how long it would have taken.

So what is the point of all this? The point is you're changing the definition of the word.
And I've shown you several different languages and there definitions.With none that match your definition. You're calling an Apple, Orange!

Another point is if this book is supposed to be a divine message from high above. The manuscript of that deity only shows the deity's ingonarance.

If the script reads.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

But what the deity really ment was.

"POPCORN! POPCORN! GET IT WHILE IT"S HOT!"

It communication is wasted because our to understandings of the words are so far apart we will never get any message.

If the definition can only be interpreted by "prophets" Then it's a waste of paper. If words don't mean what they mean, and are open to interpretation to whoever reads then they are of no use.

Let's say the two lines I stated above rang true. And the "Prophet" reads it all see's it for POPCORN POPCORN! No one else would ever figure it out. He could say whatever he wanted like "Give me tidings." "Or I need the biggest silly hat."And the message is lost.

If we're pretending that a Divine being has transcribed this threw some means. If the message can't be understood clearly by the masses, its message is lost. You might as well say An Apple is Dinosaur. This gose for any "Holy" book, but when it is required to fully understand an ancient and dead language to get understanding of what a "god" wanted you to do with your Sundays. I feel it would be a lazy god.

(02-10-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  So, only true prophets understand true meaning of words "eternal punishment".
I just shared with all of you this knowledge whether you need it or not.

I know you fancy yourself as a "True Prophet" Alla. But your very statement disproves you are any such thing.

"YaBuh. Sensei I never called myself a True Prophet."

You stated you understood the true meaning of eternal punishment. You also stated ONLY true prophet understand it meaning. Since ONLY true prophets understand it's meaning and you understanding it's meaning means you see yourself as a true Prophet.

Look at that. I just shared with you a shit ton of knowledge whether you understand it or not.

The thing is, Joseph Smith had no education. So he made up all this shit, (claiming he could translate hieroglyphs etc etc ... which has been proven false) and told people it had "been revealed" to him. (He was a consummate liar/snake-oil salesman). They were stupid enough to buy into his shit.

Alla, no one buys your shit, here.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(03-10-2015 09:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 07:33 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Isaiah 6:2:
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (KJV)
Seraphim were standing above him: each had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he flew. (Darby)
Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. (ESV)

Ezekiel 1:5-6
Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. (KJV)
Also out of the midst thereof, the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one of them had four wings. (Darby)
And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had a human likeness, but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings. (ESV)

Try again.
I was talking about angels. Angels don't have wings.
Isaiah and Ezekiel do not talk about angels in these verses.
What are seraphim, then?
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04-10-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(03-10-2015 09:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 07:33 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Isaiah 6:2:
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (KJV)
Seraphim were standing above him: each had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he flew. (Darby)
Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. (ESV)

Ezekiel 1:5-6
Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. (KJV)
Also out of the midst thereof, the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one of them had four wings. (Darby)
And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had a human likeness, but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings. (ESV)

Try again.
I was talking about angels. Angels don't have wings.
Isaiah and Ezekiel do not talk about angels in these verses.

Then precisely what indeed are Seraphim or Cerebs.. or Thrones, Diminions, arch angels, etc?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-10-2015, 02:29 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 12:51 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  I was talking about angels. Angels don't have wings.
Isaiah and Ezekiel do not talk about angels in these verses.
What are seraphim, then?
Good question. We don't know whom prophets called "seraphims"

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04-10-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 12:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:09 PM)Alla Wrote:  I was talking about angels. Angels don't have wings.
Isaiah and Ezekiel do not talk about angels in these verses.

Then precisely what indeed are Seraphim or Cerebs.. or Thrones, Diminions, arch angels, etc?

I have an answer above about those unknown creatures or whatever but I will tell you who angels are.
Angels are children of our Heavenly Parents. Angels are:
1)all children who are not born yet, they wait their time to be born here on Earth and to obtain physical bodies, they have no wings
2)all children who are here already and who obtained physical bodies, who became mortal men; we don't have wings
3)all children who died and their spirits are in spirit world are waiting for the resurrection. they don't have wings
4)all children who already resurrected, they don't have wings
5)Lucifer and his demons are fallen angels, they will never obtain physical bodies because it was their choice. they don't have wings. they are also children of God who rebelled against Him.

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04-10-2015, 02:43 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 02:29 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 12:51 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  What are seraphim, then?
Good question. We don't know whom prophets called "seraphims"

Except we do.. since they are being described. Those being being described in Isiah that are labeled Seraphims and seraphims are considered of one of the various angel hierarchies they are that.

(04-10-2015 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 12:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Then precisely what indeed are Seraphim or Cerebs.. or Thrones, Diminions, arch angels, etc?

I have an answer above about those unknown creatures or whatever but I will tell you who angels are.
Angels are children of our Heavenly Parents. Angels are:
1)all children who are not born yet, they wait their time to be born here on Earth and to obtain physical bodies, they have no wings
2)all children who are here already and who obtained physical bodies, who became mortal men; we don't have wings
3)all children who died and their spirits are in spirit world are waiting for the resurrection. they don't have wings
4)all children who already resurrected, they don't have wings
5)Lucifer and his demons are fallen angels, they will never obtain physical bodies because it was their choice. they don't have wings. they are also children of God who rebelled against Him.

And your claims of this is? Bible verse? Book of Mormon? "true prophet" claims? So is Isiah not a "true prophet?" So what if they are children not born, etc. That is not a claim or evidence that they don't have wrings. You need to learn to back up the exact thing said with the exact evidence that fights against it.

We don't have wings in earth doesn't mean we don't in heaven/god realms. We have physical forms, we don't have physical forms there, so what is the rational argument that is we are exactly the same. There isn't one, spirit may have wings if you proclaim a spirit exists unless you prove it exists without wrings.

If you really are so fickle or determined to say, those described beings are just Godly beings that exist flying around god shouting HOLY or Cherubs do whatever they do but they aren't "angels." What is the destination or point of the label of angels anyway? Is there any benefit to any discussion, believe, idea, realization, ANYTHING to proclaim those aren't angels but human souls in heaven are what angels are?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-10-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
Facepalm

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-10-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 03:28 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Facepalm

Give it up, GWG, she's a lost cause. Drinking Beverage

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04-10-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 02:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 12:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Then precisely what indeed are Seraphim or Cerebs.. or Thrones, Diminions, arch angels, etc?

I have an answer above about those unknown creatures or whatever but I will tell you who angels are.
Angels are children of our Heavenly Parents. Angels are:
1)all children who are not born yet, they wait their time to be born here on Earth and to obtain physical bodies, they have no wings
2)all children who are here already and who obtained physical bodies, who became mortal men; we don't have wings
3)all children who died and their spirits are in spirit world are waiting for the resurrection. they don't have wings
4)all children who already resurrected, they don't have wings
5)Lucifer and his demons are fallen angels, they will never obtain physical bodies because it was their choice. they don't have wings. they are also children of God who rebelled against Him.

Wut? Tee-hee..........lol............bwahahahahahaha...............

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And she believes this shit.Laughat

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
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04-10-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Eternal Punishment
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(04-10-2015 02:29 PM)Alla Wrote:  Good question. We don't know whom prophets called "seraphims"
Except we do.. since they are being described. Those being being described in Isiah that are labeled Seraphims and seraphims are considered of one of the various angel hierarchies they are that.
We don't know who seraphims are. Just because they are described slightly we still don't know who they are.
I forgot to remind that many words in language of prophets have more than one meaning. "Angel" beside that it is spirit, it is also any messenger from God.
Seraphim can be called "angel from God" only if seraphim was sent with some kind of message. In this sense we can call anybody "angel form God"
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And your claims of this is? Bible verse? Book of Mormon? "true prophet" claims?
Doctrine and Covenants section 129, other Church books which also called scriptures by LDS, in the Temple we learn about angels.
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So is Isiah not a "true prophet?"
I believe he is.
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So what if they are children not born, etc. That is not a claim or evidence that they don't have wrings. You need to learn to back up the exact thing said with the exact evidence that fights against it.
I only tell you what I learned from the revelations that God gave when He restored His Church on Earth.
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  We don't have wings in earth doesn't mean we don't in heaven/god realms.
Not according to the revelations which God gave in this dispensation; dispensation of the fullness of all things.
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  We have physical forms, we don't have physical forms there,
Not 100% true. Only those who are not born yet don't have physical bodies in heaven. Gods don't have wings and They have physical bodies.
(04-10-2015 02:43 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If you really are so fickle or determined to say, those described beings are just Godly beings that exist flying around god shouting HOLY or Cherubs do whatever they do but they aren't "angels." What is the destination or point of the label of angels anyway? Is there any benefit to any discussion, believe, idea, realization, ANYTHING to proclaim those aren't angels but human souls in heaven are what angels are?
Angels are messengers from God. Angels are those who bring message.
If seraphim was sent to bring a message then seraphim plays a role of angel, it can be called "an angel" for that moment, it is a messenger from God for that moment.

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