Eternal universe without Big Bang?
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18-10-2013, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2013 12:12 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
The big bang theory, or the more modern inflationary cosmology does not require that the energy came from nowhere. In other words the big bang isn't the declared beginning of everything, it is the earliest point we can get information about because any information (particles that existed, their configurations) that existed before the 'bang' would have been cleared. But to be clear we don't know much (if anything) about the moment the big bang occurred, only the moments that followed.

An amusing piece from his site (I'm skimming).

Quote:Q: Can matter exist without space?

No!

Why?

Because matter needs the background of “nothingness” to give it shape/form and allow it to have internal structure. Otherwise, how can we possibly classify something as “matter” or “entity”? Matter needs to be spatially separated from the background of space; otherwise the motion of matter would be impossible. How will an object change its location with respect to another object if both objects are not spatially separated from the background?

Lesson for the day: Matter is spatially separate from space.

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18-10-2013, 10:31 PM
Eternal universe without Big Bang?
I will stick with my "irrational" scientific method.
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19-10-2013, 01:14 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
I started reading this thread and was assualted with utter rubbish so I will respond to the post subject which was at least thought provoking, as compared to the thought numbing responses it received.

There is a false concept in the secular world that eternity means a long long long time that never ends and if the universe is eternal then a long long time ago before the long long time there was a long long long time. So that eternity is just a whole bunch of endless time like an endless string.

This is a false understanding. Time is a physical dimension which was created by God. Eternity is the spiritual dimension in which God has always existed.
Chuck Misler gives a good analogy of time. Time is like a parade. You see the dancers, floats, bands pass you by and each person in the parade witnesses the parade from their viewpoint in time. So that when a float passes by you, you can no longer see it, and until the dancers reach you you have very little knowledge of them.

Eternity is like however being in a helicopter and being able to survey the entire parade at once. God who is dwelling in eternity can see every aspect of the parade from the viewpoint of every person at every time that person surveyed it, all at once.

This is what omniscience is and is a divine power of God alone.

This is the only thing which makes sense from a philosophical sense. There must be an eternal being who has for his own divine purpose created time and then created a universe to mark the time. This is exactly what is described in Genesis 1 and it is the only explanation which has a workable philosophical framework.
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19-10-2013, 02:01 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 01:14 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I started reading this thread and was assualted with utter rubbish so I will respond to the post subject which was at least thought provoking, as compared to the thought numbing responses it received.

Thought provoking? All it is you do is regurgitate your unsubstantiated beliefs. If you were to actually think you'd actually want to find out if what you believe is true, and not just believe it for the sake of how it makes you feel. No thinking, your much more like a recorder. Repeating the same message over and over, no room for rational thought. Evidence doesn't sway someone like you, feelings do. So we are to trust your feelings? Give us a break.

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19-10-2013, 03:36 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
The article may be bullshit, but the concept that the universe is eternal isn't. Even if we 'prove' the Big Bang beyond reasonable doubt, that wasn't the beginning. Before the Big Bang there was a small point that contained everything that comprises the universe. Even if you say "But, something from nothing". Well, there is no such thing as 'nothing'. Even this type of 'nothing' isn't truly nothing because it is comprised of energy, even without mass.

I'm no physicist, so I sure someone more educated than me can respond, but I am of the opinion that the universe has always been and always will be in some form.

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19-10-2013, 04:17 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 02:01 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 01:14 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I started reading this thread and was assualted with utter rubbish so I will respond to the post subject which was at least thought provoking, as compared to the thought numbing responses it received.

Thought provoking? All it is you do is regurgitate your unsubstantiated beliefs. If you were to actually think you'd actually want to find out if what you believe is true, and not just believe it for the sake of how it makes you feel. No thinking, your much more like a recorder. Repeating the same message over and over, no room for rational thought. Evidence doesn't sway someone like you, feelings do. So we are to trust your feelings? Give us a break.
Whatever way we slice and dice question it is still nothing more than philosophy. None of these theories can be proven by science. The only difference is that my philosophy is true and is based upon the scriptures and the teachings of the church, which are revealed by God himself, the author of all things, to his loyal servants.

Whereas your philosophy is a joke and utter rubbish. A physical universe cannot be eternal because it is physical. Physical things cannot be eternal, it defies the Physical law of Thermodynamics.
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19-10-2013, 04:51 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2013 04:55 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 04:17 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 02:01 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  Thought provoking? All it is you do is regurgitate your unsubstantiated beliefs. If you were to actually think you'd actually want to find out if what you believe is true, and not just believe it for the sake of how it makes you feel. No thinking, your much more like a recorder. Repeating the same message over and over, no room for rational thought. Evidence doesn't sway someone like you, feelings do. So we are to trust your feelings? Give us a break.
Whatever way we slice and dice question it is still nothing more than philosophy. None of these theories can be proven by science. The only difference is that my philosophy is true and is based upon the scriptures and the teachings of the church, which are revealed by God himself, the author of all things, to his loyal servants.

Whereas your philosophy is a joke and utter rubbish. A physical universe cannot be eternal because it is physical. Physical things cannot be eternal, it defies the Physical law of Thermodynamics.

So your willingly believing in something you know very well hasn't been proven to be true, that's definitely a sign of a rational mind. Do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? I'd like to know what law(s) you think falsify all eternal universe/multiverse hypothesis. and why are you claiming a part of science proves our universe is not eternal when you just said these things can't be proven.

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19-10-2013, 05:07 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 04:17 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 02:01 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  Thought provoking? All it is you do is regurgitate your unsubstantiated beliefs. If you were to actually think you'd actually want to find out if what you believe is true, and not just believe it for the sake of how it makes you feel. No thinking, your much more like a recorder. Repeating the same message over and over, no room for rational thought. Evidence doesn't sway someone like you, feelings do. So we are to trust your feelings? Give us a break.
Whatever way we slice and dice question it is still nothing more than philosophy. None of these theories can be proven by science. The only difference is that my philosophy is true and is based upon the scriptures and the teachings of the church, which are revealed by God himself, the author of all things, to his loyal servants.

Whereas your philosophy is a joke and utter rubbish. A physical universe cannot be eternal because it is physical. Physical things cannot be eternal, it defies the Physical law of Thermodynamics.

Umm...no. Just the opposite. Physical objects ARE eternal. They change shape and form over and over, but they do not vanish or cease to exist. When I die my body will decay, break apart, be eaten, digested. The energy that comprises my body will get recycled into the earth. Likewise, I am comprised of recycled materials. The atoms that make up my body once belonged to many other beings. We are all stardust.

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19-10-2013, 06:09 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 04:51 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 04:17 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Whatever way we slice and dice question it is still nothing more than philosophy. None of these theories can be proven by science. The only difference is that my philosophy is true and is based upon the scriptures and the teachings of the church, which are revealed by God himself, the author of all things, to his loyal servants.

Whereas your philosophy is a joke and utter rubbish. A physical universe cannot be eternal because it is physical. Physical things cannot be eternal, it defies the Physical law of Thermodynamics.

So your willingly believing in something you know very well hasn't been proven to be true, that's definitely a sign of a rational mind. Do you even know the laws of thermodynamics? I'd like to know what law(s) you think falsify all eternal universe/multiverse hypothesis. and why are you claiming a part of science proves our universe is not eternal when you just said these things can't be proven.
Thankyou, yes it is a sign of a rational mind. Freudian slip there on your part.

I have repeatedly demonstrated that there are many things which cannot be proven which we know to be true because God revealed those things to the prophets, and through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, and through his holy apostles.
An eternal universe is falsified by the notion from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. This is basically the Heat death of the universe.

So either the universe is not an isolated system and there is something outside of the universe sustaining it with additional thermodynamic free energy (eg. God) or else the earth is of finite age and was created with an abundance of potential energy. I suggest a bit of both.

The first law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed. Note that this is a physical law which scientists bind themselves. In their notions there are only physical laws. So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.

Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

Back to your claim that I am contradicting myself. I am fairly sure that I did not say that the Law of Thermodynamics proves that the universe did not exist for ever.
However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

I feel sorry for the physicists. They have painted themselves into a corner because they are painting with excrement and dung and it never dries because cosmologists, biologists, astronomers and physicists keep pouring more stinking dung on it. They are up to their neck with all their crap and their scientific establishment house of cards is about to fall down and not too soon either. In fact their building is condemned already and the bulldozers are lining up to tear the edifice down as it is a public health hazard.

In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested.
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19-10-2013, 06:35 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.



Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

Why is that clear? What has made it clear? What does God consist of? What created the stuff he is made from? What makes you think that Atheists share the same view of he universe?



(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

No it doesn't. Also, we have a good idea of what happened immediately before the big bang, but you are right, there is still much to learn. The laws of physics may prevent us from knowing everything, but that is no reason not to learn and understand as much as we can. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus, whatever he was, was not a physicist, and had very little understanding of how the universe works. Much less than even you.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

Belief in the theory of evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with the theory of a multi-verse, full stop.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I feel sorry for the physicists. They have painted themselves into a corner because they are painting with excrement and dung and it never dries because cosmologists, biologists, astronomers and physicists keep pouring more stinking dung on it. They are up to their neck with all their crap and their scientific establishment house of cards is about to fall down and not too soon either. In fact their building is condemned already and the bulldozers are lining up to tear the edifice down as it is a public health hazard.

In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested.

Yes, physicists have foolishly made the mistake of creating a hypothesis refining it based on incoming data and ultimately creating theories that best explain the universe. The bible says x and it contradicts facts, ergo the facts are faulty and the discoverers of those facts fools. You nailed it, buddy,

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