Eternal universe without Big Bang?
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19-10-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 06:35 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.



Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

Why is that clear? What has made it clear? What does God consist of? What created the stuff he is made from? What makes you think that Atheists share the same view of he universe?
Excellent question. Physical matter is constrained by physical laws one of which is that it cannot spontaneously come into existence.
God is spirit. He is not confined in a body, he has no physical stuff at all. He is supernatural which is above or beyond what is natural. We know that physical things cannot be eternal but we have no such knowledge of supernatural spiritual things. Therefore it is a clear rational work of logic that the spiritual God is eternal. Never created, always existing, and from this omniscient and omnipotent God, all things were created.


(19-10-2013 06:35 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

No it doesn't. Also, we have a good idea of what happened immediately before the big bang, but you are right, there is still much to learn. The laws of physics may prevent us from knowing everything, but that is no reason not to learn and understand as much as we can. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus, whatever he was, was not a physicist, and had very little understanding of how the universe works. Much less than even you.
Jesus was God. He was the Word. He spoke and all things were created. Including time and including the laws of physics. Perhaps the incarnate Word being Jesus Christ did not know at a conscious level at the time he was on earth, the details of all the laws of physics. However, now that he is ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, that he knows absolutely everything about the laws of Physics to the point of being able to command them if he so chose.

(19-10-2013 06:35 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

Belief in the theory of evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with the theory of a multi-verse, full stop.
Sorry I meant atheistic physicists but it seems that you are missing the point.

(19-10-2013 06:35 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I feel sorry for the physicists. They have painted themselves into a corner because they are painting with excrement and dung and it never dries because cosmologists, biologists, astronomers and physicists keep pouring more stinking dung on it. They are up to their neck with all their crap and their scientific establishment house of cards is about to fall down and not too soon either. In fact their building is condemned already and the bulldozers are lining up to tear the edifice down as it is a public health hazard.

In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested.

Yes, physicists have foolishly made the mistake of creating a hypothesis refining it based on incoming data and ultimately creating theories that best explain the universe. The bible says x and it contradicts facts, ergo the facts are faulty and the discoverers of those facts fools. You nailed it, buddy,
Can you show me where the bible says x? Do you have a scripture reference.
If the scripture contradicts facts then point them out to me and I will explain them to you.
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19-10-2013, 07:04 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2013 07:19 AM by Dark Light.)
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
Okay, if God consists of supernatural stuff, what made that supernatural stuff? Where did it come from? What is a spirit? How is something supernatural? If supernatural is outside of nature then it is not natural, what does that mean? Why do you think a term that by definition excludes existence is meaningful?

How can Jesus be God, and also sit at his right hand? How can Jesus not know the the same things as God if he is God? Who the hell was Jesus talking to when he pleaded with God?

What does the philosophy of a physicist, theological or otherwise have to do with someone who believes in the theory of evolution? They are not even necessarily the same person. One can be an atheist and a physicist without believing in evolution.

I have yet to see a Christian bible that doesn't even contradict itself, nevermind the laws of nature, but okay, what version of the bible do you want me to quote from? Are the original books of the bible which were later omitted fair game?

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19-10-2013, 07:09 AM (This post was last modified: 19-10-2013 07:14 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Thankyou, yes it is a sign of a rational mind. Freudian slip there on your part.

Good, you know what sarcasm is.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I have repeatedly demonstrated
Absolutely nothing.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  there are many things which cannot be proven which we know to be true because God revealed those things to the prophets, and through his only begotten Son Jesus Christ, and through his holy apostles.

Which you read from the bible, a book whose claimed origin (the voice of god, the holy spirit, whatever) hasn't been verified. Come back with reliable information.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  An eternal universe is falsified by the notion from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. This is basically the Heat death of the universe.

So either the universe is not an isolated system and there is something outside of the universe sustaining it with additional thermodynamic free energy (eg. God) or else the earth is of finite age and was created with an abundance of potential energy. I suggest a bit of both.

The first law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed. Note that this is a physical law which scientists bind themselves. In their notions there are only physical laws. So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.

Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

So your using the first law (energy can not be created or destroyed) convince us that god created the universe. Interesting tac. The thing about multiverse hypotheses is that they don't require the special pleading your presenting to us here.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Back to your claim that I am contradicting myself. I am fairly sure that I did not say that the Law of Thermodynamics proves that the universe did not exist for ever.
However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

It seems to falsify an eternal Big Bang - Big Crunch theory (which has already been ruled out by observations afaik anyway). It doesn't say anything about a universe that was not always as we know it.

(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

A multiverse needs a cause but not a god? Why is that? A multiverse need not be conscious, have plans, desires, feelings, many things attributed to a god. Why would a more complex entity require no explanation for it's existence while a much simpler one does? Please clarify, remember no special pleading.

If you want to say because god is eternal, maybe the multiverse is eternal. Who is to say otherwise? We don't know.

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19-10-2013, 08:19 AM
Eternal universe without Big Bang?
Philosophically speaking, even if there was no universe before t=0 (big bang),
there may not be a beginning of the universe. The universe perhaps existed
for all t>0 but not at t=0. A bit like Zeno's paradox.
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19-10-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The first law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed. Note that this is a physical law which scientists bind themselves. In their notions there are only physical laws. So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.

Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

Back to your claim that I am contradicting myself. I am fairly sure that I did not say that the Law of Thermodynamics proves that the universe did not exist for ever.
However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

I feel sorry for the physicists. They have painted themselves into a corner because they are painting with excrement and dung and it never dries because cosmologists, biologists, astronomers and physicists keep pouring more stinking dung on it. They are up to their neck with all their crap and their scientific establishment house of cards is about to fall down and not too soon either. In fact their building is condemned already and the bulldozers are lining up to tear the edifice down as it is a public health hazard.

In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested.
Dude,
Theories, which are used by physicists to explain things, NEVER contradict the physics laws. If you don't understand something it's your fault, not physics.

First of all total energy of the universe is zero(energy of gravity is negative and energy of matter(everything else) is positive. Google for more information), so basically there is no energy needed to create universe.

Secondly, it's theoretically possible to create an universe by yourself e.g. by rewinding the cosmological clock at specific location(in your back yard or wherever). This will cause creation of so called "Baby Universe", but you'll immediately loose contact to it. So theoretically we can be "Gods" Yes

Next thing: If we can't explain something it doesn't mean that some almighty creature is in charge. Everything has logical explanation. It's just a matter of time. Once Greeks thought that Zeus was one to blame for lightning.

If you read bible attentively enough, you will easily notice that it contradicts everything that is known in physics, biology and etc. in first few lines.
Now answer these questions:

How did the light appear without the sun?
How did the Earth formed without the sun?
How did the water form before land on the earth?
How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
Need more?

And I'm sorry for the Christians, because their only answer to these questions is "He is a fucking God, he could figure it out"

And after all of these, believers still claim that science and religion are "friends".
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20-10-2013, 12:11 AM
 
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(18-10-2013 12:08 PM)Adenosis Wrote:  The big bang theory, or the more modern inflationary cosmology does not require that the energy came from nowhere. In other words the big bang isn't the declared beginning of everything, it is the earliest point we can get information about because any information (particles that existed, their configurations) that existed before the 'bang' would have been cleared. But to be clear we don't know much (if anything) about the moment the big bang occurred, only the moments that followed.

An amusing piece from his site (I'm skimming).

Quote:Q: Can matter exist without space?

No!

Why?

Because matter needs the background of “nothingness” to give it shape/form and allow it to have internal structure. Otherwise, how can we possibly classify something as “matter” or “entity”? Matter needs to be spatially separated from the background of space; otherwise the motion of matter would be impossible. How will an object change its location with respect to another object if both objects are not spatially separated from the background?

Lesson for the day: Matter is spatially separate from space.

But according to his article here http://fatfist.hubpages.com/hub/What-is-...UNLIMITED, he said our intellect is unlimited thus we can rationally explain everything. He said again only our sensory system which has limits because of its physical bandwidth response to sensory stimuli and our intellect has no such limits. Our intellect is not predicated on external stimuli. We are in full control over our intellect. We can conceive of anything and most certainly can understand anything that God can explain to us. Intellect has no physical bandwidth limitations like our senses do.

Why not?

Because he said intellect is a dynamic concept. Intellect is an action that WE perform with the atoms of our brain. Intellect is not an object, like our retina, which responds to external stimuli from light and thus has a physical bandwidth limit (i.e. frequency response or detail resolution). Objects have physical limits; concepts don’t. Concepts are the relations or interactions between objects. Intelligence is first and foremost a concept or verb; an activity that is mediated by the interactions of atoms in our brain. It is our brain biology that is responsible for mediating this verb we call “intelligence”.

Then, I think we got a self-proclaimed "omniscient" being there already, don't you think? Tongue
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20-10-2013, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2013 01:12 AM by Adenosis.)
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(20-10-2013 12:11 AM)Mike Wrote:  But according to his article here http://fatfist.hubpages.com/hub/What-is-...UNLIMITED, he said our intellect is unlimited thus we can rationally explain everything. He said again only our sensory system which has limits because of its physical bandwidth response to sensory stimuli and our intellect has no such limits. Our intellect is not predicated on external stimuli. We are in full control over our intellect. We can conceive of anything and most certainly can understand anything that God can explain to us. Intellect has no physical bandwidth limitations like our senses do.

Why not?

Because he said intellect is a dynamic concept. Intellect is an action that WE perform with the atoms of our brain. Intellect is not an object, like our retina, which responds to external stimuli from light and thus has a physical bandwidth limit (i.e. frequency response or detail resolution). Objects have physical limits; concepts don’t. Concepts are the relations or interactions between objects. Intelligence is first and foremost a concept or verb; an activity that is mediated by the interactions of atoms in our brain. It is our brain biology that is responsible for mediating this verb we call “intelligence”.

Then, I think we got a self-proclaimed "omniscient" being there already, don't you think? Tongue

Intelligence is to the brain as the senses are to the sense organs. Sight is limited by the retina as much as our intellect is limited by the brain. Can you imagine a limit on sight? I can't, i can imagine being able to see every photon in space. That is until I consider the physical entity which produces the sense of sight, the retina. Similarly we may not think there is a limit on intelligence until we consider where intellect stems from, the brain.

There is a limited space it can occupy, with limited connections and limited processes per unit time. Intellect is not something that can increase forever unless you imagine a brain that forever increases in the quantity of neurons and connections. Eventually it wouldn't be possible to sustain such a huge brain, and even if that was ignored eventually the mass would be so great that neurons would collapse, the atoms could collapse and form a neutron star, or it could cave in on itself and become a black hole.

Similarly there may be other limits on what we can know. If there is a time before the big bang, it may be completely isolated from the spacetime we are familiar with now. Much like jumping in past the event horizon of a black hole, you can't come back out to tell everyone what you found. You are completely isolated.

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20-10-2013, 02:00 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(19-10-2013 12:51 PM)HanzoHasashi Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 06:09 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The first law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed it can only be transformed. Note that this is a physical law which scientists bind themselves. In their notions there are only physical laws. So how do we explain the existence of energy? Clearly it was created by a supernatural power which is not constrained by the physical laws of nature and who in fact commands and directs the physical laws.

Atheist attempts to get around this problem are an utter joke. They are pitiful. My philosophy is rational. It is the only possible sensible conclusion. So I am sticking to it.

Back to your claim that I am contradicting myself. I am fairly sure that I did not say that the Law of Thermodynamics proves that the universe did not exist for ever.
However I will say that to the extent of our knowledge it falsifies the theory that the universe as we know it existed forever. However scientists know so little about the primordial universe that they have dreamed up. They have no idea what existed prior to their big bang. They have no idea what triggered the big bang.

Maybe evolutionists think that the universe is not a closed system at all but feeds of other universes in the multi-verse. But this does not solve the problem, it just makes the multi-verse the closed system but instead of having the problem of how the universe came into being the poor old physicist has to somehow explain how the multiverse came into existence before the general public burst into laughter.

I feel sorry for the physicists. They have painted themselves into a corner because they are painting with excrement and dung and it never dries because cosmologists, biologists, astronomers and physicists keep pouring more stinking dung on it. They are up to their neck with all their crap and their scientific establishment house of cards is about to fall down and not too soon either. In fact their building is condemned already and the bulldozers are lining up to tear the edifice down as it is a public health hazard.

In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested.
Dude,
Theories, which are used by physicists to explain things, NEVER contradict the physics laws. If you don't understand something it's your fault, not physics.

First of all total energy of the universe is zero(energy of gravity is negative and energy of matter(everything else) is positive. Google for more information), so basically there is no energy needed to create universe.

Secondly, it's theoretically possible to create an universe by yourself e.g. by rewinding the cosmological clock at specific location(in your back yard or wherever). This will cause creation of so called "Baby Universe", but you'll immediately loose contact to it. So theoretically we can be "Gods" Yes

Next thing: If we can't explain something it doesn't mean that some almighty creature is in charge. Everything has logical explanation. It's just a matter of time. Once Greeks thought that Zeus was one to blame for lightning.

If you read bible attentively enough, you will easily notice that it contradicts everything that is known in physics, biology and etc. in first few lines.
Now answer these questions:

How did the light appear without the sun?
How did the Earth formed without the sun?
How did the water form before land on the earth?
How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
Need more?

And I'm sorry for the Christians, because their only answer to these questions is "He is a fucking God, he could figure it out"

And after all of these, believers still claim that science and religion are "friends".
God made heaven and earth exactly as he revealed that he created it.
How did the light appear without the sun?
Clearly described here is a primordial light which God created before the sun for the express purpose of marking time and for showing that there is a difference between darkness and light. The other point we learn is that light was created by God, it is not a byproduct of the sun. The concept of a primordial light is not unique to the creation story. Even cosmologists speak of it (not that I value their opinion but you might).
Here is a quote from Universe today
"As the universe expanded, primordial light lost in both frequency and intensity. This occured as the original photons spread themselves thinner and thinner across an ever-expanding space. Today, the first light of creation still echos around the cosmos. This is seen as cosmic background radiation. And that particular type radiation is no more visible to the eye as the waves within a microwave oven."

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/10220/where...z2iFL4rzZ4

Of course if the cosmologist says that there was a primordial light he is regarded as a wise man, but if a creationist says there was a primordial light he is regarded as a kook.

How did the Earth formed without the sun?
God made the earth before the sun by his miraculous power at the command of his word. He spoke and they came into being. The Sun was created in the same way by God on the 4th day of creation as an adornment for the earth, to give heat to the earth and to rule over the day.

How did the water form before land on the earth?
When God first made the earth it was covered with water. There was a layer of earth over subterranean waters, then over the earth there was another layer of water. To form dry land God lifted up the earth in places so that dry land was exposed. The topology of the earth when God first made it was quite different to what it is today. The topology of the earth was greatly changed, in fact transformed, at the global flood. This is explained in the book of Genesis and is elaborated by Walt Brown . His entire book which is utterly brilliant explains many of these mysteries http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/


How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
The plants were made on the third day of creation and the sun was created on the 4th day. Remember too that at this time the primordial light was still in place to light the earth. I think you will agree that plants can survive for one day without the sun shining.

Need more?
Happy to
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20-10-2013, 02:31 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(20-10-2013 02:00 AM)excubitor Wrote:  God made heaven and earth exactly as he revealed that he created it.
How did the light appear without the sun?
Clearly described here is a primordial light which God created before the sun for the express purpose of marking time and for showing that there is a difference between darkness and light. The other point we learn is that light was created by God, it is not a byproduct of the sun. The concept of a primordial light is not unique to the creation story. Even cosmologists speak of it (not that I value their opinion but you might).
Here is a quote from Universe today
"As the universe expanded, primordial light lost in both frequency and intensity. This occured as the original photons spread themselves thinner and thinner across an ever-expanding space. Today, the first light of creation still echos around the cosmos. This is seen as cosmic background radiation. And that particular type radiation is no more visible to the eye as the waves within a microwave oven."

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/10220/where...z2iFL4rzZ4

Of course if the cosmologist says that there was a primordial light he is regarded as a wise man, but if a creationist says there was a primordial light he is regarded as a kook.

How did the Earth formed without the sun?
God made the earth before the sun by his miraculous power at the command of his word. He spoke and they came into being. The Sun was created in the same way by God on the 4th day of creation as an adornment for the earth, to give heat to the earth and to rule over the day.

How did the water form before land on the earth?
When God first made the earth it was covered with water. There was a layer of earth over subterranean waters, then over the earth there was another layer of water. To form dry land God lifted up the earth in places so that dry land was exposed. The topology of the earth when God first made it was quite different to what it is today. The topology of the earth was greatly changed, in fact transformed, at the global flood. This is explained in the book of Genesis and is elaborated by Walt Brown . His entire book which is utterly brilliant explains many of these mysteries http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/


How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
The plants were made on the third day of creation and the sun was created on the 4th day. Remember too that at this time the primordial light was still in place to light the earth. I think you will agree that plants can survive for one day without the sun shining.

Need more?
Happy to

That's all fine and dandy if you presuppose the existence of that god. But where is the justification for doing so?

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20-10-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Eternal universe without Big Bang?
(20-10-2013 02:00 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(19-10-2013 12:51 PM)HanzoHasashi Wrote:  Dude,
Theories, which are used by physicists to explain things, NEVER contradict the physics laws. If you don't understand something it's your fault, not physics.

First of all total energy of the universe is zero(energy of gravity is negative and energy of matter(everything else) is positive. Google for more information), so basically there is no energy needed to create universe.

Secondly, it's theoretically possible to create an universe by yourself e.g. by rewinding the cosmological clock at specific location(in your back yard or wherever). This will cause creation of so called "Baby Universe", but you'll immediately loose contact to it. So theoretically we can be "Gods" Yes

Next thing: If we can't explain something it doesn't mean that some almighty creature is in charge. Everything has logical explanation. It's just a matter of time. Once Greeks thought that Zeus was one to blame for lightning.

If you read bible attentively enough, you will easily notice that it contradicts everything that is known in physics, biology and etc. in first few lines.
Now answer these questions:

How did the light appear without the sun?
How did the Earth formed without the sun?
How did the water form before land on the earth?
How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
Need more?

And I'm sorry for the Christians, because their only answer to these questions is "He is a fucking God, he could figure it out"

And after all of these, believers still claim that science and religion are "friends".
God made heaven and earth exactly as he revealed that he created it.
How did the light appear without the sun?
Clearly described here is a primordial light which God created before the sun for the express purpose of marking time and for showing that there is a difference between darkness and light. The other point we learn is that light was created by God, it is not a byproduct of the sun. The concept of a primordial light is not unique to the creation story. Even cosmologists speak of it (not that I value their opinion but you might).
Here is a quote from Universe today
"As the universe expanded, primordial light lost in both frequency and intensity. This occured as the original photons spread themselves thinner and thinner across an ever-expanding space. Today, the first light of creation still echos around the cosmos. This is seen as cosmic background radiation. And that particular type radiation is no more visible to the eye as the waves within a microwave oven."

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/10220/where...z2iFL4rzZ4

Of course if the cosmologist says that there was a primordial light he is regarded as a wise man, but if a creationist says there was a primordial light he is regarded as a kook.

How did the Earth formed without the sun?
God made the earth before the sun by his miraculous power at the command of his word. He spoke and they came into being. The Sun was created in the same way by God on the 4th day of creation as an adornment for the earth, to give heat to the earth and to rule over the day.

How did the water form before land on the earth?
When God first made the earth it was covered with water. There was a layer of earth over subterranean waters, then over the earth there was another layer of water. To form dry land God lifted up the earth in places so that dry land was exposed. The topology of the earth when God first made it was quite different to what it is today. The topology of the earth was greatly changed, in fact transformed, at the global flood. This is explained in the book of Genesis and is elaborated by Walt Brown . His entire book which is utterly brilliant explains many of these mysteries http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/


How did the plants grow without photosynthesis (No Sun - No photosynthesis)
The plants were made on the third day of creation and the sun was created on the 4th day. Remember too that at this time the primordial light was still in place to light the earth. I think you will agree that plants can survive for one day without the sun shining.

Need more?
Happy to
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Are you serious?

"I think you will agree that plants can survive for one day without the sun shining." and that sentence gave me a cancer.
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