Eternalism and Conscious Experience
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03-08-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:01 PM)Carnifex Wrote:  All the arrow of time tells us is that, as we go into (what we would call) the future direction entropy increases.

What you have to understand is that "entropy increasing in the future-direction" is not an arbitrary 'law' of reality. It is merely a statistical effect.
Consider if we had entropy increasing in both time directions, what would the result of this be? Well if entropy increased in the "past" direction it would mean that the evolution of the system in question would alter so that the entropy of some past event would be greater than the entropy of some event in the "future." If this continued you would always have entropy greater in only one time direction. This is we what we do observe and we call that time direction the "past."

But entropy's arrow is one-way.

There's not really an arrow, you know. Drinking Beverage

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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03-08-2012, 08:04 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 07:44 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  If you wanna be alla way atheist about it, we're always making something outta nothing, otherwise we're aggie. Angel

And proud of it. All hail Soybeans. Thumbsup

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John 15:16 : "You did not choose me, I chose you, so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last"

Lots of fruits in beligion.
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03-08-2012, 08:13 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 07:47 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I personally believe that at night, while everyone is asleep (EVERYONE), the Universe resets and everything is placed with exact replicas. Exact.

Isn't that obvious? I thought everyone knew it.Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-08-2012, 11:34 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2012 11:41 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 08:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 07:47 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I personally believe that at night, while everyone is asleep (EVERYONE), the Universe resets and everything is placed with exact replicas. Exact.

Isn't that obvious? I thought everyone knew it.Consider

I didn't know this!
It's very troubling.
I'm going to take a job on a night shift.

(ps, my 1000th post. Note to self: must get out more)

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04-08-2012, 05:21 AM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 02:08 PM)kim Wrote:  In terms of general relativity or special relativity, time describes location more than anything - it's modeled as a dimension.

I don't think so. What about the theoretical possibility of closed time-like curves? That shows that time is a fourth dimension.

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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04-08-2012, 05:40 AM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 02:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your consciusness may not "go away", but you will never experience it again...

Well the question here is, what is "experiencing"? The running of an (very complex set of) algorithm(s)? If so, "when" do these algorithms run? These questions were posed in a different way by Douglas Hofstader and Daniel C. Dennet in "A Conversation with Einstein's Brain" (View here: http://themindi.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/c...eins.html)

However in the context I am asking, it is that if previous moments in time still exist, and therefore mine or your consciousness still exists within them, should the consciousness still be "running."

As for my frame of reference, I don't really see how that affects the argument when every single particle inside of my brain has its own frame of reference, and so why am I able to experience anything at all - at any time - then?

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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04-08-2012, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 07:01 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 05:40 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 02:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your consciusness may not "go away", but you will never experience it again...

Well the question here is, what is "experiencing"? The running of an (very complex set of) algorithm(s)? If so, "when" do these algorithms run? These questions were posed in a different way by Douglas Hofstader and Daniel C. Dennet in "A Conversation with Einstein's Brain" (View here: http://themindi.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/c...eins.html)

However in the context I am asking, it is that if previous moments in time still exist, and therefore mine or your consciousness still exists within them, should the consciousness still be "running."

As for my frame of reference, I don't really see how that affects the argument when every single particle inside of my brain has its own frame of reference, and so why am I able to experience anything at all - at any time - then?

Your consciousness does not arise from "every single particle inside your brain". Consciousness is an emergent (macro) process from complexity. The individual particles, individually, are not individually important, except as tiny parts of a whole, as I explained, with reference to Statistical Mechanics. Your frame of reference is absolutely important. There is no way space can be ignored, in Relativity, therefore, "if it's still running" is irrelevant, unless you can "get back there". Do you know about event horizons ? That is simply the reality in which we live. The article you reference is really old. The next step was Penrose's "Shadows of the Mind", which now also has been discarded. The fact is, consciousness has never been observed to be "an algorhythm" which runs apart from, or other than in a collection of brain cells, which exist in spacetime, and function only in spacetime, locally. As long as the entropy of this universe is increasing, you're never going "back there". Time as a dimension, does not exist separately from space, (as Relativity has proven). Your frame of reference is 100 % important.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist & Levitating Yogi
John 15:16 : "You did not choose me, I chose you, so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last"

Lots of fruits in beligion.
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04-08-2012, 08:11 AM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 06:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 05:40 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  Well the question here is, what is "experiencing"? The running of an (very complex set of) algorithm(s)? If so, "when" do these algorithms run? These questions were posed in a different way by Douglas Hofstader and Daniel C. Dennet in "A Conversation with Einstein's Brain" (View here: http://themindi.blogspot.co.uk/2007/02/c...eins.html)

However in the context I am asking, it is that if previous moments in time still exist, and therefore mine or your consciousness still exists within them, should the consciousness still be "running."

As for my frame of reference, I don't really see how that affects the argument when every single particle inside of my brain has its own frame of reference, and so why am I able to experience anything at all - at any time - then?

Your consciousness does not arise from "every single particle inside your brain". Consciousness is an emergent (macro) process from complexity. The individual particles, individually, are not individually important, except as tiny parts of a whole, as I explained, with reference to Statistical Mechanics. Your frame of reference is absolutely important. There is no way space can be ignored, in Relativity, therefore, "if it's still running" is irrelevant, unless you can "get back there". Do you know about event horizons ? That is simply the reality in which we live. The article you reference is really old. The next step was Penrose's "Shadows of the Mind", which now also has been discarded. The fact is, consciousness has never been observed to be "an algorhythm" which runs apart from, or other than in a collection of brain cells, which exist in spacetime, and function only in spacetime, locally. As long as the entropy of this universe is increasing, you're never going "back there". Time as a dimension, does not exist separately from space, (as Relativity has proven). Your frame of reference is 100 % important.

Smile I was hoping you'd mention Roger Penrose; I wouldn't say that his ideas have been discarded at all. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s from 2010 and this 2011 paper by Penrose, refining his theory and responding to criticisms. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/Cosmology160.html

You seem to be assuming that actual conscious experience is reliant on what is going on "now" at some arbitrary point in space-time. First of all, we don't know for certain that there is a "now."
See this for example: "Can the Universe Create Itself?" J. Richard Gott, III, Li-Xin Li http://arxiv.org/abs/astroph/9712344

In models such as these there would be no "now" moment, simply events that exist at different points in time.

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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04-08-2012, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 05:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 08:11 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 06:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your consciousness does not arise from "every single particle inside your brain". Consciousness is an emergent (macro) process from complexity. The individual particles, individually, are not individually important, except as tiny parts of a whole, as I explained, with reference to Statistical Mechanics. Your frame of reference is absolutely important. There is no way space can be ignored, in Relativity, therefore, "if it's still running" is irrelevant, unless you can "get back there". Do you know about event horizons ? That is simply the reality in which we live. The article you reference is really old. The next step was Penrose's "Shadows of the Mind", which now also has been discarded. The fact is, consciousness has never been observed to be "an algorhythm" which runs apart from, or other than in a collection of brain cells, which exist in spacetime, and function only in spacetime, locally. As long as the entropy of this universe is increasing, you're never going "back there". Time as a dimension, does not exist separately from space, (as Relativity has proven). Your frame of reference is 100 % important.

Smile I was hoping you'd mention Roger Penrose; I wouldn't say that his ideas have been discarded at all. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s from 2010 and this 2011 paper by Penrose, refining his theory and responding to criticisms. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/Cosmology160.html

You seem to be assuming that actual conscious experience is reliant on what is going on "now" at some arbitrary point in space-time. First of all, we don't know for certain that there is a "now."
See this for example: "Can the Universe Create Itself?" J. Richard Gott, III, Li-Xin Li http://arxiv.org/abs/astroph/9712344

In models such as these there would be no "now" moment, simply events that exist at different points in time.

No. It's absolutely the opposite. I"m not going to even attempt to deal with the Penrose/Tegmark argument. It's not an "arbitrary" point in space time. It's in your brain. And that is a spacetime point, and that is not "arbitrtary", however it works. I still say you don't understand Relativity. There is no absolute "now", as everyone agrees. But what you experience as "now" is dependent on your position within spacetime.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist & Levitating Yogi
John 15:16 : "You did not choose me, I chose you, so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last"

Lots of fruits in beligion.
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04-08-2012, 02:50 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 02:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  what you experience as "now" is dependent on you position within spacetime.

I'm not arguing against that at all. I am suggesting that if previous events still exist in space-time (think CTCs as an example) then when I die, my consciousness "stops" as it were, so my position in space-time; bearing in mind that "my position" is referring to my consciousness which is the collective action of my brain; would be in one of the preceeding events where my consciousness has not "stopped" but is still "going" i.e. from (what I would call) the "start."

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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