Eternalism and Conscious Experience
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04-08-2012, 05:19 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 11:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 08:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  Isn't that obvious? I thought everyone knew it.Consider

I didn't know this!
It's very troubling.
I'm going to take a job on a night shift.

(ps, my 1000th post. Note to self: must get out more)

Not so fast. They take breaks. It will be done while you are in the restroom. No one will ever know.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-08-2012, 05:22 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 05:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-08-2012 11:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I didn't know this!
It's very troubling.
I'm going to take a job on a night shift.

(ps, my 1000th post. Note to self: must get out more)

Not so fast. They take breaks. It will be done while you are in the restroom. No one will ever know.

Well, that certainly clinches it.Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-08-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 08:11 AM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 06:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your consciousness does not arise from "every single particle inside your brain". Consciousness is an emergent (macro) process from complexity. The individual particles, individually, are not individually important, except as tiny parts of a whole, as I explained, with reference to Statistical Mechanics. Your frame of reference is absolutely important. There is no way space can be ignored, in Relativity, therefore, "if it's still running" is irrelevant, unless you can "get back there". Do you know about event horizons ? That is simply the reality in which we live. The article you reference is really old. The next step was Penrose's "Shadows of the Mind", which now also has been discarded. The fact is, consciousness has never been observed to be "an algorhythm" which runs apart from, or other than in a collection of brain cells, which exist in spacetime, and function only in spacetime, locally. As long as the entropy of this universe is increasing, you're never going "back there". Time as a dimension, does not exist separately from space, (as Relativity has proven). Your frame of reference is 100 % important.

Smile I was hoping you'd mention Roger Penrose; I wouldn't say that his ideas have been discarded at all. See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXFFbxoHp3s from 2010 and this 2011 paper by Penrose, refining his theory and responding to criticisms. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/Cosmology160.html

You seem to be assuming that actual conscious experience is reliant on what is going on "now" at some arbitrary point in space-time. First of all, we don't know for certain that there is a "now."
See this for example: "Can the Universe Create Itself?" J. Richard Gott, III, Li-Xin Li http://arxiv.org/abs/astroph/9712344

In models such as these there would be no "now" moment, simply events that exist at different points in time.

Thanks for the link. I think I understood most of the words but the sentences ?!?! they could have been talking about biology for all I could make out!

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04-08-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(03-08-2012 11:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  (ps, my 1000th post. Note to self: must get out more)

Interpol agrees.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-08-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 02:50 PM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 02:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  what you experience as "now" is dependent on you position within spacetime.

I'm not arguing against that at all. I am suggesting that if previous events still exist in space-time (think CTCs as an example) then when I die, my consciousness "stops" as it were, so my position in space-time; bearing in mind that "my position" is referring to my consciousness which is the collective action of my brain; would be in one of the preceeding events where my consciousness has not "stopped" but is still "going" i.e. from (what I would call) the "start."

Well, theoretically, and this is only for closed time curves which are not contractible - where one would be able to go to the universal covering space, and reestablish causality. The thing is... after so many times of going back and reestablishing causality, revolution after revolution, the geometric series converges.

Which is fine with me, but it's also somewhat inelegant. so, meh. Yes, it is a possibility in one of the parts of a theory which says that the universe continually goes through a big bang, expands, vacuums in, and big bangs again... but it's a small part and loses ground when quantum gravity overtakes much of general relativity.

However, you're trying to inject consciousness into a location... if that floats your boat fine, but I'm rowing my own boat.

kiss noise Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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04-08-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
Theosophy teaches of an ever evolving cyclic and expanding Universe, whereby every component part is metaphysically interconnected.
They postulate a kind of moral imperative, in part, individually created, by trial and error, that underpins the entire system by means beyond our present understanding.
Their considerations,based a good deal on the writings of occultist Madam Helena Blavatsky are very confusing, esoteric and speculative.

I am not a Theosophist; however I find their teachings far more compatible than the great bulk of Christian apologetics.Angel
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04-08-2012, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2012 09:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 02:50 PM)Carnifex Wrote:  
(04-08-2012 02:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  what you experience as "now" is dependent on you position within spacetime.

I'm not arguing against that at all. I am suggesting that if previous events still exist in space-time (think CTCs as an example) then when I die, my consciousness "stops" as it were, so my position in space-time; bearing in mind that "my position" is referring to my consciousness which is the collective action of my brain; would be in one of the preceeding events where my consciousness has not "stopped" but is still "going" i.e. from (what I would call) the "start."

This argument for our inability to experience death has been considered. But it just feels like one of Zeno's paradoxes to me where the arrow never reaches the target. But for all intents and purposes, there is a threshold where when the limit is sufficiently approached the arrow hits the straw. ... That and Zeno didn't have the advantage of Leibniz/Newton like I do. Wink

(04-08-2012 06:55 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Theosophy teaches of an ever evolving cyclic and expanding Universe, whereby every component part is metaphysically interconnected.

Don't know shit about theosophy, but I am pretty sure that "reality" is not some objective thing that we are trying to figure out, but rather a process that we are intimately involved with.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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05-08-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 06:34 PM)kim Wrote:  you're trying to inject consciousness into a location...

Are you suggesting that consciousness is independent of location? I suppose it would seem that way, after all my consciousness yesterday when I was at the library is the same one as the one sat at the PC now, isn't it?

This is a question of the nature of personal identity. I think that the continuity of consciousness is actually an "illusion" i.e. a 'conciousness' emerges at each discrete moment based on the information being processed.

The physicist Peter Lynds has an idea similar to this: http://cogprints.org/3125/1/Subjective_P...usness.pdf

(Note I'm not necessarily advancing Lynds idea as fact; just using it as an example)

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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05-08-2012, 07:41 AM
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
(04-08-2012 06:34 PM)kim Wrote:  The thing is... after so many times of going back and reestablishing causality, revolution after revolution, the geometric series converges.

Which is fine with me, but it's also somewhat inelegant. so, meh.

I've never really understood the desire of some scientists to want "elegant" theories. Firstly "elegance" is subjective. Secondly when we're trying to work out how reality works; understand facts. Why should we even expect reality to conform to our preconceived ideas about art...? Huh

Leonardo da Vinci Wrote:While I thought that I was learning how to live, I have been learning how to die.
Epicurus Wrote:Death means nothing to us...when we exist, death is not yet present, and when death is present, then we do not exist.
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05-08-2012, 09:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2012 11:39 AM by kim.)
RE: Eternalism and Conscious Experience
When a piece of a puzzle doesn't fit, I don't to commit to ones that "might" or "could"... I can examine them all I want, but I do not rely on something "not quite there" to further my understanding of the big picture.

I do not have preconceived ideas about art.

As for consciousness - I have no or very few questions about it. In my opinion, I don't think consciousness is eternal - it dies when I die - if that's what you're asking about. My "story" ends with me.

As for closed time curves -it's not so much specificity but the redundancy which bothers me - again, that's just me. Since we're musing, I have no objections to shaky parts of some kinds of theories. I simply have commitment issues. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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