Ethics, what ethics?
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23-12-2013, 07:51 AM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
I got in a similar debate on a picture comment thread on Facebook. It was a pic about cracker barrel removing duck dynasty stuff from their store and Christians are upset about. The amount of ignorance stemming from the pic comments was staggering. In the end they all collectively decided to pray for me
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23-12-2013, 10:19 AM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
Today I posted a link to the story where Cracker Barrel caved and restocked the shelves with the DD crap. The headline I wrote was "Cracker Barrel's Almighty Dollar trumps its Almighty God!"

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23-12-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
Hi WillHopp

Must say I appreciate and enjoy your courage to defend your point of view and taking on 'the other side'. Good for you. Just always remind yourself to engage gracefully in battle. Never loose your temper or be too critical. If you do, you'll come out the looser and just be another 'bad example' of an atheist. And remember also, there will always be someone up higher on the ladder than you are. Therefore, also be humble when wielding your sword and you shall succeed.

I also checked out your BlogSpot and liked what you are posting. Picked up some quite nifty ideas - thanks.
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24-12-2013, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2013 04:33 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
(20-12-2013 11:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  She asked if we could start over and she promised to do her best to debate on her own and would refer to the CCC for her responses. It's so typical for a Christian. "I can't think for myself, I have to enlist a friend or refer to a doctrine to see how I think."


What's a CCC? EDIT: Nevermind, I see now, but does the CCC claim atheists are atheists because they are mad at gawd/church/etc?

Quote:She then asked me what teachings from the CCC outraged me, besides god and Jesus. I almost LOL'd when I read it and pointed out me being outraged by god/Jesus was like her being outraged by pink unicorns on Mars. While I am against all religion, I wasn't looking to throw daggers. She just automatically thought I was angry because I was an atheist and my hatred was automatically focused on the Catholic Church and that it had a bearing in why I didn't believe there's enough evidence to prove there's a supreme being.
That's a standard fallback position when they have been beaten -- an ad hominem (fallacy) assertion that we are atheists because we are angry at their church, angry at some xtard that supposedly slighted us, angry at their deity, or just plain angry.

It is an admission of defeat.


EDIT -- also, as far as the "mad at the church" thing -- I would call into question the sanity and rationality of ANY person who isn't mad at the catholic church over their global cover-up (all the way to the pope) of their embedded pedophole ring.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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24-12-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
Stefan, thanks for the kind words, especially about my blog. It started out as just therapy for me, now I just enjoy writing it.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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26-12-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
WillHopp - I disagree with you and would back up Paleophyte's points - its perfectly fine to get some more expert help in a debate and if she asked her more knowledgeable friends in the church that's fine. These debates are not about proving who is superior or who "wins" but getting to the truth or at least refining our thinking skills even if we cannot get to an "ultimate truth".
As for William Lane Craig (WLC) - he also gets the best advice he can when debating people and has greatly refined his (often deceptive) skills at persuasion. WLC did not just suddenly become a leading apologetic evangelical missionary without seeking advice from people who he does not always reference.

I recall religious debates with friends and becoming stuck then quickly having to search online or ask for "the best answers" so I can outwit the debating opponent. As long as the information used is legitimate and not made up nonsense like some archaeologist discovered something proving the bible without any hard facts to back up the claim with legitimate references.
Again the aim should not be about who wins & looks smart but what is the truth.
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26-12-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
These debates are not a sport where the opponent is cheating if they take some illicit drug. I have seen some very sloppy atheists debating and being totally defeated by their fundamentalist religious opponents. This is especially true for some of the debates with William Lane Craig who for an audience not used to the issues being debated, WLC may often seem to be the winner. This is one of the disadvantages of these debates when rhetorical smooth talking, especially with ethics can become very deceptive, emotionally charged and misleading.

As for ethics - you cannot beat the WLC vs Shelly Kagan debate ! I think Shelly Kagan is a brilliant moral philosopher. The Key turning point was when Shelly Kagan's motive for being ethical was for its own sake, not for any rewards or punishments by a big daddy in the sky. (he didn't quite say it like that but defuses the whole need for a God) Just be nice Smile
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26-12-2013, 08:11 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
While I agree we should strive for truth through evidence and research, you are missing the point. It is not perfectly fine to get expert help to rebut your opponent. She is free to scour the web on her own, refer to her CCC or other books, but asking someone else to answer/rebut for her is poor form and unethical. Reaching out to someone and asking them what they think of X is one thing, but giving that person my entire argument to peruse and reply to and presenting said argument as her own isn't debating, it's pinch-hitting. Feel free to look up the definitions of debate and ethics, then get back to me.

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26-12-2013, 08:23 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
Quote:She then asked me what teachings from the CCC outraged me, besides god and Jesus. I almost LOL'd when I read it and pointed out me being outraged by god/Jesus was like her being outraged by pink unicorns on Mars. While I am against all religion, I wasn't looking to throw daggers. She just automatically thought I was angry because I was an atheist and my hatred was automatically focused on the Catholic Church and that it had a bearing in why I didn't believe there's enough evidence to prove there's a supreme being.
That's a standard fallback position when they have been beaten -- an ad hominem (fallacy) assertion that we are atheists because we are angry at their church, angry at some xtard that supposedly slighted us, angry at their deity, or just plain angry.

It is an admission of defeat.

1. You can point out specifically the ad hominem thinking all atheists are angry all the time. Do you know any cool & calm minded totally chilled out atheists ?

2. Ask...have you ever been angry at the church ??? Find an area where the person is angry and expand on it - this should be extremely easy for the Catholic Church. If someone isn't angry about the actions of the catholic Church they need some serious therapy !!!! Turn the critique 180 degrees to the opponent - find their anger and demonstrate your cool collective rationalism. However it is also useful to admit one IS ANGRY at the abuses of the church and defend that anger rationally. (that's easy to do - we are rationally justified to be angry at a church hiding priests molesting kids as an example)

3. Sometimes its irrelevant if we are angry or not. If evidence is lacking the emotional disposition is pretty much irrelevant.
2.
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26-12-2013, 08:30 PM
RE: Ethics, what ethics?
(26-12-2013 08:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  While I agree we should strive for truth through evidence and research, you are missing the point. It is not perfectly fine to get expert help to rebut your opponent. She is free to scour the web on her own, refer to her CCC or other books, but asking someone else to answer/rebut for her is poor form and unethical. Reaching out to someone and asking them what they think of X is one thing, but giving that person my entire argument to peruse and reply to and presenting said argument as her own isn't debating, it's pinch-hitting. Feel free to look up the definitions of debate and ethics, then get back to me.

I see where your coming from, but at the end of the day its not a competition of who is best like cheating in a boxing match or taking steroids in weight lifting. Chill.

Is there that much difference asking someone or posting your responses for an expert to rebut. If your genuinely rebutted then you need to reconsider your position - it might be wrong. On the other hand if you defeat & outwit the friends helpers then this may seriously harm their confidence in the religious teachings.
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