Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
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09-04-2014, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2014 11:47 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 10:23 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 10:14 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed.

But who the fuck suggested that?

Not you, I realize and stress, but that's so often the hysterical delusion that comes up from certain quarters... But no, informed consent by competent adults is not THE SLIPPERY SLOPE TO HITLERISM.

I was referring to this statement:
(09-04-2014 09:49 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Or are in a car accident and paralyzed and the parent decides that the child won't have a good quality of life without legs and decides to terminate then.

I read this as "my son lost his legs in a car accident, let's 'terminate' him" No
Also, when the hell did Hitler come into this? Huh

Yeah, I... missed that bit...

As for Hitler, well, who doesn't love a good Godwin? But no, that's a lamentably common argument. "Voluntary euthanasia will inevitably lead to involuntary euthanasia which is what the Nazis did therefore voluntary euthanasia cannot be permitted". I don't think anyone here is that stupid but I've seen it before.

(09-04-2014 10:23 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I'm on your side (assumedly). If you have a serious health reason and want to die, then it should be your right, IMO. Though if you're sad girlfriend dumped you, then get over it.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you!

I say this pretty much all the time, but pervasive stigmatisation of mental health issues is one of the worst fucking things ever.

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09-04-2014, 10:54 AM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 10:32 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  It was me! I came up with a completely ridiculous scenario - just to say that there needs to be over sight and some limitations. Because, honestly, there are some fucked up people in this world.

Ah, so it's your fault. Report to the nearest death panel at once.

I dunno, that's so far removed from any actual proposals... does it really have much bearing?

(09-04-2014 10:32 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  I know my friends Dad is getting up in years, has lots of $ in the bank, and a couple REALLY greedy kids, if he ever goes unconscious they are going to try to find a way to end it quick. Just because he's old, has some health issues, doesn't mean he wants to die, but I wouldn't put it past a few of them to say "end it, why waste money on his care, when I can spend it"

Undecided

(09-04-2014 10:38 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  There are 2 situations here:

1. Choosing to end your own life.
2. Choosing to end someone else's life.

either way, I feel health professionals should be involved. In the situation that Anj described, it should be totally accepted, the meds provided so when he chooses to take that step it is available.

I've only ever seen the former opposed on religious grounds.

The latter is obviously messier, but given adequate standards of consent that's only relevant to mental impairment which isn't covered by a pre-existing request. Ideally improving neuroimaging makes that a smaller and smaller portion of cases...

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09-04-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
I fully supported assisted suicide. If you are sick and its never going to get better why should you have to suffer? Because other people dont want to be uncomfortable? Thats crap.

Its not as easy to access this process as one might think. Here in Oregon you have to jump through a lot of hoops.

As for choosing death for another person. Thats harder. It would depend from situation to situation I suppose.
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09-04-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 10:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 10:23 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I was referring to this statement:

I read this as "my son lost his legs in a car accident, let's 'terminate' him" No
Also, when the hell did Hitler come into this? Huh

Yeah, I... missed that bit...

As for Hitler, well, who doesn't love a good Godwin? But no, that's a lamentably common argument. "Voluntary euthanasia will inevitably lead to involuntary euthanasia which is what the Nazis did therefore voluntary euthanasia cannot be permitted". I don't think anyone here is that stupid but I've seen it before.

(09-04-2014 10:18 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  I'm on your side (assumedly). If you have a serious health reason and want to die, then it should be your right, IMO. Though if you're sad girlfriend dumped you, then get over it.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you!

I say this pretty much all the time, but pervasive stigmatisation of mental health issues is one of the worst fucking things ever.

Besides misquoting me as itsnotmeitsyou, I agree with everything you've said.

Glad we understand each other Laugh out load

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09-04-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
I am in support of euthanasia, having seen first hand the decline and death of several people and family members due t terminal cancer.

The option to choose to go when you want to, when death is all that is left should be available.

A large dose of barbiturates and you go to sleep and never wake up, if that were me that's how i'd want to go.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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09-04-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 11:10 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Besides misquoting me as itsnotmeitsyou, I agree with everything you've said.

Glad we understand each other Laugh out load

Fixed.

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09-04-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 11:10 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 10:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah, I... missed that bit...

As for Hitler, well, who doesn't love a good Godwin? But no, that's a lamentably common argument. "Voluntary euthanasia will inevitably lead to involuntary euthanasia which is what the Nazis did therefore voluntary euthanasia cannot be permitted". I don't think anyone here is that stupid but I've seen it before.


Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you!

I say this pretty much all the time, but pervasive stigmatisation of mental health issues is one of the worst fucking things ever.

Besides misquoting me as itsnotmeitsyou, I agree with everything you've said.

Glad we understand each other Laugh out load

I got to this point and I was like "WTF!?! Did I comment here and not even remember doing so? How messed up was I last night?" Laugh out load


On the topic of Euthanasia, I agree with Cathy that it's an issue of bodily autonomy. No one has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own life and body so long as it's not harming others. I too have watched a loved one slowly die of some terrible disease for which there is no hope of recovery. I know that if I were faced with the choice of dieing slowly and painfully while those who loved me watched helplessly, or putting my affairs in order and saying my goodbyes before bowing out gracefully, I'd take the latter. Call me a coward if that makes you feel better, but no one should have to go through that amount of suffering simply to assuage your feelings on suicide.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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09-04-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 09:49 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  Having worked in long term care (usually of the elderly), I'm all for it.

Right now you can sign a DNR (do not resuscitate) order, and no one will do CPR on you, which is usually what people sign when they know they are not going to get better.

I have no problem letting people choose to die. I would want to make sure health professionals are involved to help ensure they aren't being coerced, are fully aware of the decision, not being manipulated in some way, no mental illness, there might be more, but those types of things.

And in cases of minors, there are even more scenarios, like. The child finds out at age 10 that they have some terminal illness and the parent just doesn't want the burden (or expense) of treatment. Or are in a car accident and paralyzed and the parent decides that the child won't have a good quality of life without legs and decides to terminate then.

So.....definitely oversight on many levels is needed.

I guess I should clarify that I'm referring to Euthanasia among adults. As an adult, if I knew I was terminal, I would want to die before I became a financial burden to those around me. I told my husband, if I ever get alzhiemers and no one is home upstairs, please put a pillow over my head. Don't let me drain our life income to keep me alive to stare off into space. Also - I would end up taking you down with me as the caretaker often dies before the ill.

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09-04-2014, 12:23 PM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 10:29 AM)Anjele Wrote:  We (my siblings and I) are pretty sure that my dad's lady friend brought him pain meds from home to add to what he was being given at the facility he was in.

Dad had three years of increasingly painful and debilitating health issues. He was in pain, his quality of life was virtually nil, and there was no getting better.

He looked me straight in the eye and told me he wanted to die. He couldn't stand the humiliation, deterioration, and pain any more. He was lucid when he said it. He was aware of his situation.

All us kids went to see him and spent a week there. A day or so before we left he told some of the rehab staff goodbye, that he wasn't coming back to see them any more. He also told the docs no more antibiotics or anything beyond pain meds. We all left and he declined further, then my uncle headed to see him and he rallied until the uncle got there and spent a day.

While the uncle was there it's apparent that dad took the extra meds and went to sleep for the last time. I know he planned it that way so that his friend wouldn't be alone (with uncle there) and she obliged his request.

I saw the act as humane. Prior to that, I had some doubts, but in his situation it made perfect sense.

Hug

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09-04-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: Euthanasia - what is so wrong with death?
(09-04-2014 12:03 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  On the topic of Euthanasia, I agree with Cathy that it's an issue of bodily autonomy. No one has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own life and body so long as it's not harming others. I too have watched a loved one slowly die of some terrible disease for which there is no hope of recovery. I know that if I were faced with the choice of dieing slowly and painfully while those who loved me watched helplessly, or putting my affairs in order and saying my goodbyes before bowing out gracefully, I'd take the latter. Call me a coward if that makes you feel better, but no one should have to go through that amount of suffering simply to assuage your feelings on suicide.

I don't even think its always about bodily autonomy. As I said, I watched many loved ones die a very slow death. I watched my beloved uncle gasp for breath as his lungs slowly filled with fluid. The death rattle is an awful sound. While I stood by, helpless, I watched the doctor inject more morphine and I wanted to grab the medication and give my uncle a fatal dose. To end his struggle right then.

But instead we waited for his heart to stop "naturally."

Same thing with my 94 year old grandmother. She stopped eating and starved herself to death because she thought "god forgot about her" finally one morning she stroked out, and never regained consciousness. She wasn't drinking any fluids. It took her another 5 days to die. Again, while I watched her die, all I wanted to do for her was to inject an air bubble into her vein.

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