Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
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09-08-2011, 06:08 PM
Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
I heard this story on the radio this morning and found it very interesting!

Let's go back to the beginning — all the way to Adam and Eve, and to the question: Did they exist, and did all of humanity descend from that single pair?

According to the Bible (Genesis 2:7), this is how humanity began: "The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." God then called the man Adam, and later created Eve from Adam's rib.

Polls by Gallup and the Pew Research Center find that four out of 10 Americans believe this account. It's a central tenet for much of conservative Christianity, from evangelicals to confessional churches such as the Christian Reformed Church.

But now some conservative scholars are saying publicly that they can no longer believe the Genesis account. Asked how likely it is that we all descended from Adam and Eve, Dennis Venema, a biologist at Trinity Western University, replies: "That would be against all the genomic evidence that we've assembled over the last 20 years, so not likely at all."

Researching The Human Genome

Venema says there is no way we can be traced back to a single couple. He says with the mapping of the human genome, it's clear that modern humans emerged from other primates as a large population — long before the Genesis time frame of a few thousand years ago. And given the genetic variation of people today, he says scientists can't get that population size below 10,000 people at any time in our evolutionary history.

To get down to just two ancestors, Venema says, "You would have to postulate that there's been this absolutely astronomical mutation rate that has produced all these new variants in an incredibly short period of time. Those types of mutation rates are just not possible. It would mutate us out of existence."

Venema is a senior fellow at BioLogos Foundation, a Christian group that tries to reconcile faith and science. The group was founded by Francis Collins, an evangelical and the current head of the National Institutes of Health, who, because of his position, declined an interview.

And Venema is part of a growing cadre of Christian scholars who say they want their faith to come into the 21st century. Another one is John Schneider, who taught theology at Calvin College in Michigan until recently. He says it's time to face facts: There was no historical Adam and Eve, no serpent, no apple, no fall that toppled man from a state of innocence.

"Evolution makes it pretty clear that in nature, and in the moral experience of human beings, there never was any such paradise to be lost," Schneider says. "So Christians, I think, have a challenge, have a job on their hands to reformulate some of their tradition about human beginnings."

'Fundamental Doctrines Of The Christian Faith'

To many evangelicals, this is heresy.

"From my viewpoint, a historical Adam and Eve is absolutely central to the truth claims of the Christian faith," says Fazale Rana, vice president of Reasons To Believe, an evangelical think tank that questions evolution. Rana, who has a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Ohio University, readily admits that small details of Scripture could be wrong.

"But if the parts of Scripture that you are claiming to be false, in effect, are responsible for creating the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, then you've got a problem," Rana says.

Rana and others believe in a literal, historical Adam and Eve for many reasons. One is that the Genesis account makes man unique, created in the image of God — not a descendant of lower primates. Second, it tells a story of how evil came into the world, and it's not a story in which God introduced evil through the process of evolution, but one in which Adam and Eve decided to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.

Rest of story (you can also listen) here:

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/138957812/...am-and-eve

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10-08-2011, 04:58 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
I wonder as they research more and more will they admit that large parts of scripture are wrong instead of just " small details of Scripture could be wrong". Or will they go into denial like so many creationists. Blind to what's right infront of them because it contradicts their beliefs.
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10-08-2011, 06:06 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
They will go into denial, oh, sorry, they are already there, don't you hear them denying everything that is not LITERALLY BIBLICAL. And my God, how can someone have a Ph.D. in biochemistry and then say all these nonsenses... Ohio University must give away those diplomas for 3.50$...

But OK, lets say that they are correct, then all the descendants from Adam and Eve are horrible perverts, all doing "it" with brothers/sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins... What kind of f***ed up Christian wants to believe that we are all retarded inbreeds? Don't they know what happens if you have a lot of children with your close family members? Ooooohhhh... Oh, yeah, they don't apparently. Hmmm, must be that is why they all believe in all that BS...

So there we go people, I just figured out why Christians (Creationists) believe these fairy-tales. Now we have something new to explain to them, don't try to explain how they are wrong, but how they should not be with their sisters/brothers, so that in the next couple of generations they can purge their genetic pool and thus improve their intelligence so that they can comprehend some intelligent facts. What would you do without me?

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10-08-2011, 09:16 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
They are reaching here. They want it all and are contorting the bible and science to fit their own individual world views...it is really upsetting.

Evolve
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15-08-2011, 02:51 PM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
(10-08-2011 06:06 AM)Filox Wrote:  But OK, lets say that they are correct, then all the descendants from Adam and Eve are horrible perverts, all doing "it" with brothers/sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins... What kind of f***ed up Christian wants to believe that we are all retarded inbreeds? Don't they know what happens if you have a lot of children with your close family members? Ooooohhhh... Oh, yeah, they don't apparently. Hmmm, must be that is why they all believe in all that BS...

It doesn't matter if you can spread original sin over 1,000 souls, or 10,000; you're still stuck with all the incest, unless you also let go of Noah's Ark and Sodom (Lot and his daughters.)

Eve is okay, as long as you admit that she's a short black woman with long arms, just a little bit more clever and less hirsute than her mom.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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17-08-2011, 08:39 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
Yeah, by all of this, the "original sin" was the incest. Not between Adam and Eve, but between all of their children and their grandchildren... So Adam and Eve are responsible for making a lot of incestuous children, that is their sin.

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17-08-2011, 12:59 PM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
(17-08-2011 08:39 AM)Filox Wrote:  Yeah, by all of this, the "original sin" was the incest. Not between Adam and Eve,
Ya-ha! How much more closely related can you be than man and clone?
But that can't be the original sin, because it didn't happen until after they were tossed out of the attic... er, garden. Anyway, the expulsion wasn't for taking of the tree of knowledge; it was to prevent them taking from the tree of life and getting immortality as well (Probably too late: they must have had a nibble, because the first several generations were remarkably durable).

As far as i recall, Adam and Eve had only sons in the first 130 years. Wives for these boys just showed up from out of the mist.
Later, when mankind finally started producing daughters, there was a rumour as to how angels came down to marry them. So, goodness only knows what-all kind of genes drowned into that early pool.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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20-08-2011, 02:43 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
Ah, yes, only sons... Those "new wifes" are not mentioned as I remember, so the people naturally assume more women "just came to be", but no, that is not the case here, you do know that we have to read the Bible as literally as possible, it is the Word of God and can not be changed or interpreted by man. So this leaves us with only one conclusion and it speaks how the power of God is so awesome. Kain and Abel were actually uber-gay, not only incestuous, but gay-incestuous and God, as super powerful, has made them able to have children. So not only that we are all descendent's of super incestuous people, but we are descendent's of super-gay-incestuous brothers who were miraculously able to reproduce. Much like Mrs. Garrison has explained (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealFilox...5aQ8X-hA). I do apologize for repeating this link, but it is so great at explaining creation and ID, I just have to.

There, we can end the discussion, I have found the source of all the problems with Christianity and human kind in general. We can now safely close this whole forum.

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25-08-2011, 03:30 PM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
Were there a biblical Adam and Eve? No. All we all descended from one woman and one man? Yeah, Kinda.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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26-08-2011, 05:33 AM
RE: Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve
You would think somewhere down the line of Bible translation etc they would cotton onto this and change the 'translation' to make it more realistic, i.e. a bit less incest.
In fact they should have had some kind of committee that went through the Bible and changed or removed all the silly bits. Virgin births, Global floods with arks, people coming back from the dead.
Maybe they did but were left with nothing so just left it.
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