Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
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14-07-2017, 01:53 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(13-07-2017 11:08 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  One reason you should keep religion out of politics is pretty simple... it won't always be your religion that's in the majority. So it's to protect you and yours, as well as everyone else, not to try to "keep God out of X" (as if we could keep any actual God out of anything).

Why can't they get this?

Probably they won't live to see different religion being in charge so there is no reason for such caution. In Poland at least catholicism being dethroned is nothing else than wishful thinking*.


*One has to remember difference between being pro god language and actually doing what religious leaders tell should be done.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-07-2017, 08:02 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(12-07-2017 09:28 AM)mordant Wrote:  Monday, Christians lay hands on TRump.

Tuesday, what may well turn out to be TRum's "Watergate moment" happens.

God's Mysterious Ways.
In the interest of fairness, this article suggests that the situation for evangelical support of Trump may be more complex than it seems on the surface. While Baptists tend to support trump, other evangelical groups tend not to (by an admittedly less than perfect measure of Trump performance in areas where certain religious groups are dominant).

The basic TL;DR version is that as a whole evangelicals didn't like Clinton because she's a godless purveyor of godless idea, they didn't like Trump because he's morally bankrupt, so they just didn't vote.

On the other hand, surprisingly, they equate mainline (white liberal) denominations with Trump support. WTF? I wouldn't have expected that, since they are, well, liberal.

The contention is that Catholic and evangelical voters supported Trump "less than Romney". I'm not clear on whether or not that's a distinction without a difference, since "less" isn't the same as "not enough". Trump DID get elected, even if on a technical override of a narrow popular vote loss, after all.

I guess the overall thesis of the article is that as the "moral restraints" of religion are cast off, a drift towards "populism" is inevitable:
Quote:But if you think the current wave of populism is a rough ride, wait until you see what happens when the South is freed of the moral restraint of the Southern Baptists — the Southwest of Catholicism, or the West of Mormonism. The social and political disorder unleashed by those approaching changes could truly be something to behold.

This statement is itself inaccurate, I think, as there are two very different kinds of populism, personified by Sanders on the left and Trump on the right; progressive liberalism vs alt-right.

Also, I am extremely skeptical that the stated groups provide any real "moral restraint", they already are failing in that regard which is why they are in decline to begin with. Moral laxity is not a symptom of casting off restraints; rather, denominational decline is a symptom of the ineffectiveness (the nonexistence, really) of the claimed restraints. It is a casting off of pretense, not of actual morality.
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14-07-2017, 08:48 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 01:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 11:08 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  One reason you should keep religion out of politics is pretty simple... it won't always be your religion that's in the majority. So it's to protect you and yours, as well as everyone else, not to try to "keep God out of X" (as if we could keep any actual God out of anything).

Why can't they get this?

Probably they won't live to see different religion being in charge so there is no reason for such caution. In Poland at least catholicism being dethroned is nothing else than wishful thinking*.


*One has to remember difference between being pro god language and actually doing what religious leaders tell should be done.

Yeah, good point. But you'd think they'd at least care about future Christians. I guess not, or else they're so arrogant as to think it's impossible they'll be overtaken.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-07-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 08:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 01:53 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Probably they won't live to see different religion being in charge so there is no reason for such caution. In Poland at least catholicism being dethroned is nothing else than wishful thinking*.


*One has to remember difference between being pro god language and actually doing what religious leaders tell should be done.

Yeah, good point. But you'd think they'd at least care about future Christians. I guess not, or else they're so arrogant as to think it's impossible they'll be overtaken.

But is there real risk of christianity not being dominant religion in xx years in USA?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-07-2017, 08:56 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 08:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 08:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Yeah, good point. But you'd think they'd at least care about future Christians. I guess not, or else they're so arrogant as to think it's impossible they'll be overtaken.

But is there real risk of christianity not being dominant religion in xx years in USA?

Haven't you heard how oppressed they are? Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-07-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 08:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 08:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But is there real risk of christianity not being dominant religion in xx years in USA?

Haven't you heard how oppressed they are? Tongue

I don't know how they find strength to not abandon faith in today godless America Tongue

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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14-07-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 08:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 08:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But is there real risk of christianity not being dominant religion in xx years in USA?

Haven't you heard how oppressed they are? Tongue
Yup ... Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III for example gave a pandering speech to an anti-LGBT hate group the other day in which his main point was that religion is "under attack" and members don't feel free to speak to their beliefs. You know ... it's a hard world for them, and they dream of a time when every President that is elected claims to believe in god, they are free to worship where and as they please, and their places of worship don't even have to pay taxes.

Oh, wait ...
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14-07-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(14-07-2017 09:49 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 08:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  Haven't you heard how oppressed they are? Tongue
Yup ... Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III for example gave a pandering speech to an anti-LGBT hate group the other day in which his main point was that religion is "under attack" and members don't feel free to speak to their beliefs. You know ... it's a hard world for them, and they dream of a time when every President that is elected claims to believe in god, they are free to worship where and as they please, and their places of worship don't even have to pay taxes.

Oh, wait ...

In their world, Christianity being under attack means they don't have the right to force it on people. The horror. Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-07-2017, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2017 11:35 AM by mordant.)
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(12-07-2017 09:28 AM)mordant Wrote:  I'm not suggesting that evangelicals were ever pure as the driven snow, or for that matter, purer than anyone else (other than in between their ears). But like preachers and politicians everywhere, they have come to the place where they no longer feel the need to even appear moral and upright in public, or to have any meaningful standards. To STAND FOR something.
Here's an analysis from The Atlantic regarding Trump's recent interview by Pat Robertson. TL/DR version is that Robertson has been a purveyor of paranoia about Russia, using them as a foil since forever; yet he softballed Trump on this. The summary paragraph is telling (emphasis mine):
Quote:There’s perhaps no greater symbol of how far the the party has stretched to accommodate its Trumpian wing than the acceptance of that wing among anti-Russia evangelicals. Several stalwarts have abandoned their closely-held principles to embrace a president who seems to have few closely-held principles at all. Now, include among that number the most dogged and delirious old Cold Warrior.

Robertson was on the lunatic fringe even for my tribe back in the day, but he took a stab at mainstream acceptance with his 1988 presidential bid, which disintegrated amid the realization that a man who extemporized about his praying to rebuke an approaching hurricane and seeing it as a test of presidential worthiness was maybe not a good person to pick as your champion. Apparently in 1988 we had some concept that crazy, incompetent and/or stupid people shouldn't be running for president -- much less being elected president. How times hath changed ... now Christians accept and enable people who are not only possessed of a questionable grasp of reality, but act like mafia dons.
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14-07-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
Gotta stay alive somehow

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