Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
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18-07-2017, 02:40 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 01:13 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-07-2017 08:24 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  And that is good. The idea that one can state God does not exist and then stop there, twiddling one's thumbs doesn't seem to be a good idea. It means that if one cannot accept the claim God is somehow a source of morals, one does not have a duty to think about the concept of morals and ethics and where that is undermined by bad politics, cultures, ideologies and theologies. The old fashioned laissez faire economics did not work so we moved on from that to progressivism. That is called, learning from past mistakes.

Atheism doesn't imply duty of which you speak, it's just absence of belief in god.

Also the idea that one can state God does not exist and then stop there is what atheism is about. Being atheists does not oblige me to to support so called "progressive" policy.

If one accepts there are no Gods, then one accepts morality is not something we get from God. So morality is something we are on our own for. We must then actively create our own moral codes based on pragmatism and common sense.

This is a natural consequence of being an atheist. A commitment to moral common sense and avoiding bad ideologies and cultural failures that surround us.

Being atheist has moral, ethical, and philosophical aspects to atheism, based on rejecting the idea that God created these things for us in some cut and dried fashion we must accept unconditionally.

Those who stop at the idea that God does not exist as the whole of atheism, do not seem to me to following up on the logical implications of that claim.

Either belief in a God who created moral or not believing in a God that creates our moral has consequences, for our think about how to act and how to live.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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18-07-2017, 03:42 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2017 03:47 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 02:40 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  If one accepts there are no Gods, then one accepts morality is not something we get from God.

Quite a surprise I must say. Drinking Beverage

Quote:So morality is something we are on our own for. We must then actively create our own moral codes based on pragmatism and common sense.

Hardly. No need for creating morals when society already have it. And who are you to say upon what "our" moral codes must be based?

Quote:This is a natural consequence of being an atheist. A commitment to moral common sense and avoiding bad ideologies and cultural failures that surround us.

No. Lack of belief in god does not mean that atheist is any better at avoiding so called bad ideologies and alleged cultural failures. Also what you think bad ideology and cultural failure others can see in different light.

Quote:Being atheist has moral, ethical, and philosophical aspects to atheism, based on rejecting the idea that God created these things for us in some cut and dried fashion we must accept unconditionally.

Being atheist mean that one is absent belief in god.

Quote:Those who stop at the idea that God does not exist as the whole of atheism, do not seem to me to following up on the logical implications of that claim.

Those who think that atheism is something more than absence of belief are overthinking it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-07-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 03:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Those who think that atheism is something more than absence of belief are overthinking it.
Atheism is indeed nothing more than absence of belief in any deities, and nothing in atheism inherently demands that one think deeply about existential matters like morality. Happily, though, it does FREE one to think deeply and freely about such things.

While society provides morality, it does so by (imperfectly) aggregating the input of all society's members and their shared experience. So I do have some interest in providing my input to that process, in hopes of influencing societal morality / ethics / priorities in what I, and hopefully enough others, regard as a better direction.

That is something other than atheism, it is simply civic interest and participation, or perhaps humanism, but, in the case of an atheist, this participation in society has far more potential to be un-barnacled with silly ideological shibboleths and other stupid limitations, and to have some basis in actual reality. That's what "freethinking" is all about, after all.
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18-07-2017, 08:03 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 07:53 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 03:42 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Those who think that atheism is something more than absence of belief are overthinking it.
Atheism is indeed nothing more than absence of belief in any deities, and nothing in atheism inherently demands that one think deeply about existential matters like morality. Happily, though, it does FREE one to think deeply and freely about such things.

While society provides morality, it does so by (imperfectly) aggregating the input of all society's members and their shared experience. So I do have some interest in providing my input to that process, in hopes of influencing societal morality / ethics / priorities in what I, and hopefully enough others, regard as a better direction.

That is something other than atheism, it is simply civic interest and participation, or perhaps humanism, but, in the case of an atheist, this participation in society has far more potential to be un-barnacled with silly ideological shibboleths and other stupid limitations, and to have some basis in actual reality. That's what "freethinking" is all about, after all.

Atheist can be burdened with ideological shibboleths just as easily as theist - one have god and other could have Marxist utopia as poison of choice. Atheist could try to build on Nietzsche or de Gobineau as lack of belief in one fairy tale isn't guarantee of being immune to others, nor atheism mean that one is good person.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-07-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
I'm more concerned about the increasing religiosity of the White House than I am with the power plays of Kim Jong-un.
The posturing fat boy is of zero consequence globally, despises religious belief, and is an atheist. Which is far more favourable than the orange fat boy in the US. [Image: 0762.png]

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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18-07-2017, 09:53 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 08:03 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-07-2017 07:53 AM)mordant Wrote:  Atheism is indeed nothing more than absence of belief in any deities, and nothing in atheism inherently demands that one think deeply about existential matters like morality. Happily, though, it does FREE one to think deeply and freely about such things.

While society provides morality, it does so by (imperfectly) aggregating the input of all society's members and their shared experience. So I do have some interest in providing my input to that process, in hopes of influencing societal morality / ethics / priorities in what I, and hopefully enough others, regard as a better direction.

That is something other than atheism, it is simply civic interest and participation, or perhaps humanism, but, in the case of an atheist, this participation in society has far more potential to be un-barnacled with silly ideological shibboleths and other stupid limitations, and to have some basis in actual reality. That's what "freethinking" is all about, after all.

Atheist can be burdened with ideological shibboleths just as easily as theist - one have god and other could have Marxist utopia as poison of choice. Atheist could try to build on Nietzsche or de Gobineau as lack of belief in one fairy tale isn't guarantee of being immune to others, nor atheism mean that one is good person.
Sure, atheism doesn't guarantee either goodness or rightness. My contention is only that a person who is an atheist is most likely one because he's rejected the failed epistemology of religious faith in favor of logic, reason and probably science. However imperfectly he understands his new epistemology, he's on a sounder footing to develop other beliefs and ideas, such as moral convictions. Give me a dozen believers and a dozen unbelievers and they will all have flawed ideas beset with blind spots and bias; but you know which group I think will have less flaws and fewer blind spots.
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18-07-2017, 09:59 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 09:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm more concerned about the increasing religiosity of the White House than I am with the power plays of Kim Jong-un.
The posturing fat boy is of zero consequence globally, despises religious belief, and is an atheist. Which is far more favourable than the orange fat boy in the US. [Image: 0762.png]
Kim's ability to send a nuke to the US mainland at some point (and probably already to Guam, Hawaii and/or Alaska) isn't what I'd call inconsequential. Nor is the minimum regional death toll of 250,000 in any conventional warfare that might be ignited; that would have huge economic knock-on effects right here at home, and a nonzero ability to draw us into WW3.

I am more worried about fat boy's overreaction / mishandling of the threats represented by Kim, than about Kim himself, of course. Also fat boy's increasing need for a war to bolster his popularity -- the more superficially just the cause (like protecting the homeland), the better.

As for the "increasing religiosity of the White House", I think that's more accurately termed "the increasing naked pandering to religiosity by the White House". He's just reminding them that they need to have his back if he's going to continue delivering strict constructionist SCOTUS justices and ultraconservative wingnut judges to lesser posts. Trump himself remains the most areligious of possible White House occupants, while still having a mental landscape of alternative reality that the religious have. It's just for different reasons.
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18-07-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 09:53 AM)mordant Wrote:  Sure, atheism doesn't guarantee either goodness or rightness. My contention is only that a person who is an atheist is most likely one because he's rejected the failed epistemology of religious faith in favor of logic, reason and probably science.

Or just wasn't indoctrinated heavily and never believed but rather went through the motions without thinking too much about it.

Quote:However imperfectly he understands his new epistemology, he's on a sounder footing to develop other beliefs and ideas, such as moral convictions. Give me a dozen believers and a dozen unbelievers and they will all have flawed ideas beset with blind spots and bias; but you know which group I think will have less flaws and fewer blind spots.

Atheists will one up theist by virtue of not having religion but other than that I'm not convinced that unbelievers will have less flaws.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-07-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
My brother is a Christian and he voted for Trump simply because Trump was the more "Christ-friendly" candidate and had a higher chance of implementing religion-based policies. Blink

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18-07-2017, 10:42 AM
RE: Evangelicals give up more of their credibility
(18-07-2017 10:23 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  My brother is a Christian and he voted for Trump simply because Trump was the more "Christ-friendly" candidate and had a higher chance of implementing religion-based policies. Blink

On a couple of separate occasions, Trump said—on discussing women—that it's okay "to grab 'em by the pussy" and that if his daughter was other than that, then he'd like to fuck her (or words to that effect).

Does your Christian brother regard that as "Christ-friendly"? I don't recall Hillary saying anything even vaguely similar. Huh

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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