Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
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17-09-2016, 01:39 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 01:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-09-2016 12:58 AM)theBorg Wrote:  They are most high for many of ordinary atheistic people. Thanks to the Lord!

Why hasn't the Lord granted you a PhD?

Probably too busy watching children get raped by the clergy to intervene. Drinking Beverage

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17-09-2016, 03:41 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
It's just after 4AM where I am, and I've awakened in the middle of the night with a thought...

I think the OP's "from above" comment is telling; it reveals the fundamental difference in perspective between someone with a particular theological upbringing/outlook and someone who has a broader sense of the universe in which we live (including theists with a scientific education).

One of my favorite sci-fi books, Ender's Game, written by a theist named Orson Scott Card (please ignore the movie, if you've seen it-- they robbed the characters of their three-dimensional personalities and made them cartoonish, thus ruining the film, which is ironic because of what I'm about to say), has several sections about teaching a group of children who are learning to be soldiers how to fight in zero gravity. It's about perspective.

When most of the kids get into the combat zone, they orient themselves facing the enemy team's "gate" (the objective for capture), pick an arbitrary direction for their notion of where they think "the ground" is, and then move from obstacle to obstacle in the attack, as one would on a normal, terran battlefield. The tactics which stem from this are obvious and predictable, and lend themselves to easy counter-tactics. Ender has the revelation that there is no direction in zero-G, but that the human brain which evolved on the flat plains of eastern Africa has difficulty processing the new perspective, so it needs a reference point. So he shifts the reference point, and tells his troops, "The enemy's gate is down." By picturing themselves falling toward the target, instead of randomly picking one wall as "the ground", they are better able to engage in true 3-D tactics and thus begin to win their matches handily.

Why do I mention this?

Because there is no "above", in the sense that the OP is using it. There is simply the universe. Unless you are standing on the surface of the earth, and you arbitrarily choose "the direction on top of my head" as "up", we are (wherever we are) a single point on a spinning oblate spheroid, which is revolving a bigger oblate spheroid, which itself is hurtling along, at incredible speed, at a random plane-angle relative to a collection of other stars that make up the loose conglomeration that is our galaxy... which is also moving and also at a random angle with respect to all the other. If you flip your mental picture of what I just described completely upside down, nothing has changed except your brain's image of the galaxy.

Why does this matter?

Because the writers of the Qur'an (and the Bible) were ignorant desert dwellers who had a very two-dimensional view of the planet, in which a "sky god" could be "above" us, and in which the magical rules which govern their tiny world could descend from "above". This is a fundamentally different perspective from someone who really sees the universe as it is, rather than from the only perspective available to our tribal ancestors. This is one of the chains that is broken when someone moves away from finding their perspective of the world universe in the ancient scriptures of a superstitious and ignorant peoples. As Astreja so eloquently put it, "'The laws' in the sense of physical principles are inherent properties of physical entities and didn't 'come' from anywhere. They're just here."

This perspective is obvious to the atheist, and to the liberal/educated theist, but not to the fundamentalist.

The difference is that we know the enemy's gate is down.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-09-2016, 03:44 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 01:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-09-2016 01:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why hasn't the Lord granted you a PhD?

Probably too busy watching children get raped by the clergy to intervene. Drinking Beverage
That was very nasty, EK.



But probably true...

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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17-09-2016, 04:17 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 03:44 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  
(17-09-2016 01:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Probably too busy watching children get raped by the clergy to intervene. Drinking Beverage
That was very nasty, EK.



But probably true...

It's a fact that child rape happens. It's a fact that it's very rampant among (relative to the general population) in many religions and those in positions of power and authority within a religion, who often have privileged and trusted access to children without supervision.

If there is a higher being up there aware of such things, it evidently is doing fuck all to stop it. Child rape is an unfortunate fact of our existance. Divine intervention, not so much.

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17-09-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-09-2016 03:44 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  That was very nasty, EK.



But probably true...

It's a fact that child rape happens. It's a fact that it's very rampant among (relative to the general population) in many religions and those in positions of power and authority within a religion, who often have privileged and trusted access to children without supervision.

If there is a higher being up there aware of such things, it evidently is doing fuck all to stop it. Child rape is an unfortunate fact of our existance. Divine intervention, not so much.

Sorry, EK, I could not find an irony emoji!

Yes, if there is a god he is the omni-shit-head.

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17-09-2016, 05:19 AM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 12:48 AM)theBorg Wrote:  
(16-09-2016 01:19 PM)Astreja Wrote:  science that you clearly do not understand
Yes I do, my beautiful "friend", yes I do. Let me reveal my secret identity:
https://www.etis.ee/Portal/Persons
You might want to ask for a refund on your tuition.

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17-09-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(16-09-2016 02:43 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Comment on the arXiv:1412.6136. The higher dimensions are not penetrable not because they are cyclic (the curvature of the tiny circle is infinite), but because they are additional abstract parameters of the system. Like the coordinate time in Newton Physics is such the parameter: there is no spacetime in Newton Era. How about the Strong Equivalence Principle? To satisfy it, one need to make these parameters the independent from the coordinates of the Einstein's Spacetime. Therefore these additional parameters do appear to us as the fundamental constants in our physical laws. So, an atheist might say together with theists: “the laws came from above!”

Ok, I can only guess ... with your reference to the cosmological constant, you might be assuming the more recent ideas about dark energy to be ...

'god' ...? Blink

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Whatevs.
The universe still expands, the center can not hold, things fall apart, we all fall down.

Also, you failed to show your work. You do not pass.
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17-09-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 12:48 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Let me reveal my secret identity...

You torpedoed your own "credentials" with a paper entitled "Soul Attractor." Not impressed.
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17-09-2016, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2016 09:09 PM by theBorg.)
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 01:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why hasn't the Lord granted you a PhD?
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? (John 7:15 KJV). See my question in RG and other recent posts, please:

The Higgs Boson M is always near the electron to uphold its mass m_e=const. Why then the mass of Higgs Boson (all of the 125 GeV) is not added to the mass m_e=0.0005 GeV of electron?

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17-09-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: Even an atheist can say "the laws came from above", isn't it?
(17-09-2016 12:27 PM)kim Wrote:  Ok, I can only guess ... with your reference to the cosmological constant, you might be assuming the more recent ideas about dark energy to be ...
yeh, if the cosmological constant is in fact constant, then it came from above! "From above" at least in the sense of my post, ie. from the additional dimension.
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