Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
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07-10-2013, 01:14 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 05:13 AM by NoSkyDaddy.)
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  TOOO much to quote in one post. See reply 31.
Finally I have some time to write. Sorry for the delay. For the other readers, I should explain that in a pm I promised to give your post a fair review. I will address the content of the videos you posted, but, first I want to address your concerns about male health and the perception that the feminist/women's movement is oblivious to men's welfare.

I want to state that in my experience as a man, we are our own worst enemies. How often in male to male competitive banter do you hear explicit references to male on male sexual violence? Why is it that we males think the sexual humiliation of other males is so damn funny? References to one sports team "raping" another, "bitch slapping", "making you my bitch" Just search this forum for the term "butthurt" and see how many hits you get. I'll even give you an example from this very thread.
(05-10-2013 02:29 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  There's no need for you to be so butthurt about it.
I do not mention this to start a pissing match or a tit-for-tat gotcha competition. I simply want to demonstrate that we are not helping ourselves. WE are perpetuating the perception that male victimization is the result of incompetence and weakness. Our use of derogatory sexual humiliation is contributing to the epidemic failure of men to seek help for the traumas of rape and domestic violence. The association of defeat, failure and humiliation with sexual victimization and assault can only add to the shame, guilt, failure and devastation felt by male victims of rape. This is a crisis of inter-male culture. How can we expect women to take us seriously if we can't even be supportive to ourselves? I have serious reservations about Male Advocacy Groups, like AVfM, especially in the U.S. and for good reason. But, the data that is gradually accumulating needs to be taken seriously, by everyone especially feminists, and it is.
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  ...or perhaps "I need feminism because man get raped too"
No? I looked. Couldn't find it.
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  When feminists acknowledge that man can be and are being raped too,...
I found this article explaining that sexual violence is a man's issue because men get raped too, on feminist.com: http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspe...ices1.html

This is the search result for "male survivors" on feminist.org (Feminist Majority Foundation): http://feminist.org/searchresults.htm?q=...0survivors
Notice, results 1,2, and 8 are rape survivor resources that specifically mention helping male victims. They even have a specific link for "Survivor Resources Resources for Men". Look closely at the top center of the heading. It's there:http://www.feminist.org/911/resources_survivor.html

Also note, result 7 is an article about the use of male rape as a weapon of war in the Congo:http://feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswire...p?id=11866


(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  When feminists acknowledge that 40% of domestic violence victims are man, when feminist start advocating that man and women are to be treated equally in cases of domestic violence, when you start advocating for existence of safe houses for man victims of domestic violence...
This is the Domestic Violence page on feminist.org (Feminist Majority Foundation) containing DV helplines. The majority of them are gender neutral:http://www.feminist.org/911/crisis.html

And the ladies (and men) on feminist.com are paying attention to the issue too:http://www.feminist.com/news/vaw1.html
Women's oriented news segments are paying attention too:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gn4gA5hkxw

Even women's shelters are starting to reach out to men:http://www.kristv.com/mobile/news/shelte...-violence/

***This video was also posted on feminist.com. The speaker was invited to discuss how violence effects and is relevant to men. He discusses how our sentence structure cuts men out of the discussion about violence (I know you will have some dispute with the terminology and title. I will say "fair enough" in advance.):





(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  What feminist also ignore or not regard as a problem is the fact that man have to work longer years to achieve full pension. In my country I have to work 35 years and women 32. This inequality is not a problem for feminists.
No, as a feminist and a male, I do have a problem with that.

(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  There is no feminist concerned with the fact that 9 out of 10 people seriously injured or killed at work are man. Who gives a fuck, it's just man, they are disposable, right?
That's a ranting and nonsensical statement. It implies a suicidal indifference of male feminists toward themselves, and a frigid neglect on the part of their spouses, sisters and mothers. Besides, you have no way of knowing how feminists invest their time outside of their feminism. Maybe in addition to being a feminist, they also devote time to industrial safety. YOU don't know. Perhaps feminists feel the place to go to promote workplace safety is a work place safety forum . Just sayin'. But, as a feminist and an employee in the transportation industry, I care about industrial workplace safety. My wife's whole family (she's a feminist and so is her mom) works with heavy machinery (cranes and hoists and such) and she cares about men's safety as does her mother and both of my daughters. These issues are not invisible to us. And I believe I have adequately demonstrated the presence of concern for men in general on feminist websites.

(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  ... when u
acknowledge that false accusations do happen...
False rape allegations are VERY serious. The fact that the number of false allegations is between 2%-8% is of little consolation to the accused. Those who make such allegations are not only violating the civil rights of the accused, but, also defrauding the legal system and undermining the public trust. We are well aware of these occurrences. They are criminal and should be prosecuted. As should this...
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I didn't see anybody holding a writing saying " I need feminism because when a women cuts off a mans dick and trows it in a disposal other women find it funny" or
"I need feminism because when a women falsely accuses somebody of rape, there is no penalty for her, even tho she ruined somebodies life, and she also gets to keep the money "
I do not know anyone, feminist or otherwise that would find this funny. Also, the Falsely Accused video stated that the false accuser had not yet been charged. To claim she got away with it is spurious.


In response to this article: http://tomatonation.com/culture-and-crit...s-you-are/
You wrote this.
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Close to the end of this text there is a reference to pay gap between man and women , since that is one of the most common arguments feminists like to pull out their ass to show that society is discriminating against women , let's see what we can google about that...

wall street journal
Quote:There Is No Male-Female Wage Gap
A study of single, childless urban workers between the ages of 22 and 30 found that women earned 8% more than men.

Forbes
Quote:It's Time That We End the Equal Pay Myth

Perhaps this video explains it best.


[/quote]
(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  ...or you can contemplate on the thought that feminist are aware of this but choose to ignore it.

Yes, I am familiar with this information. I first encountered it form Levitt and Dubner's Freakonomics books. I liked hearing another presentation style, but, it makes very similar conclusions. It does not conclude, however, that the wage gap never existed. The Lilly Ledbetter (Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber
Co.) case is a clear example of modern pay discrimination. The law bearing her name (Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009) has forced companies to reevaluate the value of women's contributions. It does not require overcompensation for the female gender.
I also think you should review the video from 3.00 minutes in and consider what the economist is saying about domestic expectations for women. I will not blame this on patriarchy. Women are pressured by other women to peruse a career while simultaneously looking down on men who choose the domestic role. This frustrates my wife (a feminist and home maker) to no end. She frequently tells me that "women are their own worst enemies". I asked her once what the working women she knows think of domestic husbands. She replied, "Less than nothing.". Ironically these same women are of the conservative anti-feminist persuasion.

Forbes
Quote:It's Time That We End the Equal Pay Myth

Quote:Feminist hand-wringing about the wage gap relies on the assumption that the differences in average earnings stem from discrimination. Thus the mantra that women make only 77% of what men earn for equal work. But even a cursory review of the data proves this assumption false.


You can call it feminist hand-wringing all you want. The U.S. Department of Labor would disagree: http://social.dol.gov/blog/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/

(30-09-2013 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I could go to health care or education to show how much women are privileged in those areas , or show how much man get screwed in the case of a divorce, or how women get lighter sentences for the same crimes then man.... but this post is gonna be too long as it is, and u can google a lot of information yourself.
In regard to child custody there is no gender bias. According to Divorce Peers website, in 80% of divorces couples agreed to custody of the mother: http://divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm There may be some validity to some of the other comments, but, I only have so much time.
This post keeps getting longer and longer, so I'll respond to more in another reply. But, to conclude this one, you have some very valid concern in regard to men's health and equity, and largely I support them. Domestic violence is still greatly misunderstood due to incomplete data from under reporting by both genders, and is affected by lack of recognition on the part of many victims that a crime has been committed. There is a good article from the Australian govt. analyzing large amounts of data regarding DV. A good portion covers sample bias in DV statistics: http://newmalestudies.com/OJS/index.php/...le/view/59 I think I adequately showed that feminist concern for men's welfare is not non-existent. I can understand the discomfort with the feminist environment. When I step back and look at the sites I can see why you feel uncomfortable. It doesn't seem very welcoming to males who are not already comfortable with feminism.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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07-10-2013, 02:04 PM
Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
Feminism today is useless. A woman wanting equal pay with men is a woman who is severely missing the point. Wages are extremely shitty for many people, why don't rights groups point out the elephant in the room, THE FACT THAT MOST HUMAN BEINGS ARENT PAID A LIVING WAGE. Rights groups today compartmentalize issues which allows people to miss the point. Women are paid shitty wages yes, but the reasons are never given for this. Women are paid shitty wages because they are human and like any other human today they don't get paid a living wage. Is this too radical?

What if instead of feminists supporting the idea of poor women fighting for rich people in wars feminist groups said that poor people shouldn't fight for rich people and took a stand against the military targeting poor men and women for recruitment? Is this too radical?
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07-10-2013, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 02:33 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
Thank you. I appreciate your effort more then you would imagine.
Quote:I want to state that in my experience as a man, we are our own worst enemies. How often in male to male competitive banter do you hear explicit references to male on male sexual violence? Why is it that we males think the sexual humiliation of other males is so damn funny? References to one sports team "raping" another, "bitch slapping", "making you my bitch" Just search this forum for the term "butthurt" and see how many hits you get. I'll even give you an example from this very thread.

(05-10-2013 10:29 AM)Slowminded Wrote: There's no need for you to be so butthurt about it.

I do not mention this to start a pissing match or a tit-for-tat gotcha competition. I simply want to demonstrate that we are not helping ourselves. WE are perpetuating the perception that male victimization is the result of incompetence and weakness. Our use of derogatory sexual humiliation is contributing to the epidemic failure of men to seek help for the traumas of rape and domestic violence. The association of defeat, failure and humiliation with sexual victimization and assault can only add to the shame, guilt, failure and devastation felt by male victims of rape. This is a crisis of inter-male culture. How can we expect women to take us seriously if we can't even be supportive to ourselves? I have serious reservations about Male Advocacy Groups, like AVfM, especially in the U.S. and for good reason. But, the data that is gradually accumulating needs to be taken seriously, by everyone especially feminists, and it is.

You are right, but this problem has much deeper roots. I will try to explain. When we were little boys, and this is true for every generation before, we were taught that "boys don't cry" , that we as boys need to suck it up. This is why man look down on other man who admit they are being victimized. Since we were born we are told that being a victim makes you less of a man, we are told to "take it like a man", we are told not to show weakness, not to show hurt and not to seek help or compassion from from society, especially not from other man. This is also why we as man are not willing to show compassion to other man.

Why is that so? Because throughout history it was asked of man to charge enemy lines, to risk his life and limb to protect his family , as gww said in her video to stand in front of the cabin with a rifle in his hands to fight of intruders or wolfs or whatever , while wife and kids are inside, even today, if there is suspicions noise coming from the ground floor , men is the one who will come down to check it out.
In a case of hostage situation, women and children are the first to be negotiated for, when ship is sinking women and children are first to go into life boats.
And men expect and accept this with no questions asked, because man are taught that their needs and personal safety comes last.
This is where male victim shaming comes from, it serves a purpose to stop man from deserting the role of a protector.
My wife sometimes pressures me to talk about my job that she knows is very stressful, she says - why don't you ever complain? I can't. I was taught not to, and I was taught that nobody wants to hear me complaining. My job is to shut up and pull my load. I am fine with that.
I asked my wife if she expects me to protect her, and she said yes, and I would, without hesitation, if needed lay my life to save her's .We don't have any children yet, but the same would apply to them. Don't get me wrong , I am not complaining about it, I don't think it's unfair, there is no law compelling me to do so, that would be my choice. And I don't think that entitles me to expect anything in return either.
This is also a part of patriarchy legacy , I wonder are feminists aware of this, that one of patriarchy's most important goals ( not always achieved , but never the less ) was to protect women at any cost for man.

Quote:I found this article explaining that sexual violence is a man's issue because men get raped too, on feminist.com: http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspe...ices1.html

I have small problem with the conclusion of this article:

Quote:5. Men can stop rape
Rape is a choice men make to use sex as a weapon for power and control. For rape to stop, men who are violent must be empowered to make different choices. All men can play a vital role in this process by challenging rape supporting attitudes and behaviors and raising awareness about the damaging impact of sexual violence. Every time a man's voice joins those of women in speaking out against rape, the world becomes safer for us all.

Ok, I don't know why rapists rape, but I don't think it's only for power and control.
I can't put my finger on it , but it somehow suggests that man need to be told that
rape is bad. Do we not know that?
And that every man after "realizing" that rape is bad will spread the word to other man, and that will solve the problem.
Maybe I'm getting it wrong but it seem that this implies that man are generally prone to rape because they don't understand how bad it is, but once we explain this to them, they will stop?
It can apply to maybe some cases of date rape, otherwise it completely misses the point. I think that most of the rapists know that what they are doing is wrong, it's just that they don't care.


But this is very wrong, this would be good example why I say that feminism is dishonest
Quote:
Between 1976 and 1996, there was a "sharp decrease" in the number of men murdered by intimate partners, whereas the number of women murdered by an intimate partner remained constant.3 Some have attributed this to the increasing availability of shelters which provide battered women with options other than killing an abusive partner. It is possible that some women who might have otherwise killed their abuser are able to leave and go to a shelter.

What this article says is following...when a man kills his partner, he is the abuser and the killing is a result of his abuse , but when a women kills her partner it is only when she can't take his abuse any more and has no other options. Even when the man is killed it is assumed that he had it coming because he must've abused her to the point where she couldn't take it any more.
Completely ignoring any other possibilities.
Isn't it possible that the man killed his partner because he couldn't take hers abuse any more, or that a women killed her partner as a result of hers abusive nature?

Guess victim blaming is ok sometimes?

And don't say "wast majority of abusers in relationships are man, this is why it's represented that way"
Let's not apply different standards here, when we talk about abuse. It is not only physical. If we are to consider name calling, cat calling, verbal attacks , humiliation, belittling... as abuse when women is on a receiving end , then let's do the same when it is other way around. And then you will find that huge number of man are abused in relationships too, and man definitely have no shelters to go to, and as we both know they can't expect any sympathy from the society.

Again later in the article there is an attempt to justify growing number of women arrested for domestic violence by suggesting that it is because of "mandatory arrest".

Quote:And the ladies (and men) on feminist.com are paying attention to the issue too:http://www.feminist.com/news/vaw1.html
Women's oriented news segments are paying attention too:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gn4gA5hkxw

Even women's shelters are starting to reach out to men:http://www.kristv.com/mobile/news/shelte...-violence/
My guess is that you didn't notice the description of the youtube video that you posted.

Quote:
An interesting discussion, primarily on account of the contribution of 'Ian', a male victim of DV. The feminist narratives from the two women being interviewed - Jane Keeper, Director of Operations, Refuge, and Dr Catherine Donovan, Sunderland University - were all too predictable. One of those narratives was that when studies show women aren't the overwhelming majority of victims of DV, the studies' research methodologies must be flawed. Breathtakingly, Dr Donovan cited 'feminist researchers' as if they were reputable sources of information or analysis. Neither Jane Keeper nor Dr Donovan displayed much interest in female-on-male DV, let alone concern. They kept trying to bring the discussion onto male-on-female DV.
Towards the end of the discussion Jane Keeper stated, 'There are a proportion of male perpetrators who present as victims'. No balancing statement such as, 'There are a proportion of female perpetrators who present as victims'. So even in a discussion on male victims of DV, men have to be demonised. The feminist narratives must be maintained at all costs. But we thank Woman's Hour for covering the issue of female-on-male DV, presenter Jane Garvey for posing a number of challenging questions, and above all we thank 'Ian' for his outstanding contribution to the programme.

The lack of recognition for male victims of DV, and lack of support for them, is a longstanding national scandal in the UK, and indeed across the developed world. It is, accordingly, a major area of interest for J4MB. I end this piece with an appeal for donations to help us campaign effectively, and to help fund more candidates for the 2015 general election. Thank you for your support.
If you listen to the video you will find that the description is quite accurate.

Quote:***This video was also posted on feminist.com. The speaker was invited to discuss how violence effects and is relevant to men. He discusses how our sentence structure cuts men out of the discussion about violence (I know you will have some dispute with the terminology and title. I will say "fair enough" in advance.):
Hmm, about the TED video...I guess you noticed that English is not my first language ,and as I don't live in US or Canada so I can't tell if what he is saying is true about conversational habits and how they transcend into the way we perceive
things, it wouldn't be true in my language, so I'll leave it at that.

Quote:No, as a feminist and a male, I do have a problem with that.
Thumbsup ok.

Quote:That's a ranting and nonsensical statement. It implies a suicidal indifference of male feminists toward themselves, and a frigid neglect on the part of their spouses, sisters and mothers. Besides, you have no way of knowing how feminists invest their time outside of their feminism. Maybe in addition to being a feminist, they also devote time to industrial safety. YOU don't know. Perhaps feminists feel the place to go to promote workplace safety is a work place safety forum . Just sayin'. But, as a feminist and an employee in the transportation industry, I care about industrial workplace safety. My wife's whole family (she's a feminist and so is her mom) works with heavy machinery (cranes and hoists and such) and she cares about men's safety as does her mother and both of my daughters. These issues are not invisible to us. And I believe I have adequately demonstrated the presence of concern for men in general on feminist websites.
Ok. nothing to argue here.
Just, as a sidenote, suggesting that man in general are not concerned with the rape issue would imply sociopathic indifference to the suffering of their wives, mothers and sisters.

Quote:False rape allegations are VERY serious. The fact that the number of false allegations is between 2%-8% is of little consolation to the accused. Those who make such allegations are not only violating the civil rights of the accused, but, also defrauding the legal system and undermining the public trust. We are well aware of these occurrences. They are criminal and should be prosecuted. As should this...
Thumbsup

Quote:I do not know anyone, feminist or otherwise that would find this funny.
I do, also notice the whole crowd too, they also find it funny





Quote:To claim she got away with it is spurious.
But she did get away with it, didn't spend one day in prison , and haven't returned the money. How else would you call it if not getting away with it?

Quote:In January, when Gibson could not be found, an order for publication was granted, meaning Gibson could be served via a public announcement.


Quote:"I will go through with helping you, but all that money they gave us, I mean, gave me, I don't want to have to pay it back, all of it, because that would take a long time," Gibson said.

Quote:After Banks' release from prison, Gibson sent him a "friend" request on Facebook and was seeking to "let bygones be bygones."


Another case, also, in this video there is a mention of feminists activists role in this case.



Also, the false accuser has not spent the day in prison for this, consequently arrested for shooting her boyfriend and on charges of three counts of child abuse.

I will go trough the rest of your post and perhaps reach some conclusion when I regain my concentration, this post made me tired , but please do respond to what I wrote so far if you want.

Thank you again.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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07-10-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
Slowminded,
I can identify with tired. It made me tired too. I posted most of that to show the issues are not being neglected. I also agree with a need for change in language and terms to be more equitable. Violence is cyclical, multigenerational and cross gender and our language needs to reflec that. Skip to the last link. It's about sample bias in DV statistics by the Australian govt. I think you will like it.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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08-10-2013, 02:03 AM
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
(07-10-2013 02:04 PM)I and I Wrote:  Feminism today is useless. A woman wanting equal pay with men is a woman who is severely missing the point. Wages are extremely shitty for many people, why don't rights groups point out the elephant in the room, THE FACT THAT MOST HUMAN BEINGS ARENT PAID A LIVING WAGE. Rights groups today compartmentalize issues which allows people to miss the point. Women are paid shitty wages yes, but the reasons are never given for this. Women are paid shitty wages because they are human and like any other human today they don't get paid a living wage. Is this too radical?

What if instead of feminists supporting the idea of poor women fighting for rich people in wars feminist groups said that poor people shouldn't fight for rich people and took a stand against the military targeting poor men and women for recruitment? Is this too radical?
As members of strong union families on both sides, my wife and I are totally on board with this.Thumbsup

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09-10-2013, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2013 03:39 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
(07-10-2013 06:15 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Slowminded,
I can identify with tired. It made me tired too. I posted most of that to show the issues are not being neglected. I also agree with a need for change in language and terms to be more equitable. Violence is cyclical, multigenerational and cross gender and our language needs to reflec that. Skip to the last link. It's about sample bias in DV statistics by the Australian govt. I think you will like it.

I have to say that I would rather "call it a day" on this matter with all this info to be precessed, but I owe it to you to finish my response.

Thankfully for me, for the last part of your post I largely agree, maybe I could offer some different points of view or something, but it would really be few minor points.

Quote:I think I adequately showed that feminist concern for men's welfare is not non-existent. I can understand the discomfort with the feminist environment. When I step back and look at the sites I can see why you feel uncomfortable. It doesn't seem very welcoming to males who are not already comfortable with feminism.
You did, and for that I am grateful. But I still have a lot off issues with the approach feminism takes in the way it's dealing with this problems for the most part.
It's not the language, language will change on it's own with the change of perception .
I can now see that goals of feminism are what it is stated they are, and that is in it self great , still I think feminism is "doing it wrong" , not always and not in all respects , but a lot of the time and in a lot of ways . I can't escape the feeling that feminism still perpetuates this idea that there is something innately wrong with man, and that man need to be fixed somehow. This will never work.
I even suspect that female feminist view the male feminists as "fixed man" ( this is not in any way aimed at you as provocation or something, please don't take it that way) .
This impression of mine might be very wrong , but I bet that a lot of people who, like you said, are not already comfortable with feminism ,would feel the same way.
Of course, gender specific name doesn't help, and the first association with "feminism" is , for the most people, crazy yelling "in your face" woman.
What feminism surely need to do in order to gain more public support , is to publicly and unambiguously divorce its self from radical parts of the movement.

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11-10-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists
(27-09-2013 02:34 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  
(27-09-2013 01:50 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Feminists are all 100% crazy lesbian bitches. Fact.
Environmentalists are all 100% crazy lesbian bitches who don't shave under their arms. Fact.

That's why people don't like them.
I'm a feminist and an environmentalist. I must be a crazy lesbian bitch trapped in a man's body.

Journalism is dead in mainstream media. We have a profit driven, tabloid info-tainment mega-media complex. Reasonable viewpionts are not sexy or ridiculous enough to draw brain-dead gossip-hungry hyper-politicized dip-shits with a fifteen minute attention span. You only see the make-your-own-granola-eating, chain-yourself to-a-bulldozer-while-burning-an-effigy-of-a-penis, crazy lesbian bitches, because reasonable people are boring when the circus is in town.

Demand more of your media and this will change.

BY the FSM, it is miraculous! I agree with a hippy!
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