Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
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05-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
I was just watching a Youtube clip called Everything does NOT have a cause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryyYQ76x8...7&index=1) and they talk about modern physics and physicists that claim that universe did not have a cause.
Ok, no objection to that (since their claim is based on some evidence)

But is that claim not similar to what religious people are making? I agree that they say God did not have a cause, but we are saying that universe did not need a cause. To me they are these two claims are the same if you think of God as our universe (something like Spinoza)

but religious people go one step further. We say universe does not need a cause, they say well god created universe and god does not need a cause.

Someone help me! im a little bit confused (or skeptical) (Or never mind i can't even explain my point) but do you guy understand what i mean by that?
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05-06-2011, 01:52 PM
 
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
Religious people are making that extra step to claiming that there was some sort of creator. There isn't any truly compelling evidence to suggest that there was a creator, so we could just cut that stage out and just be left with a universe that's always been here.

So, because it's a confusing thing to talk about to be fair, religions make the claim there was a creator based on no evidence. Scientists make the claim there was no creator based on evidence.

Religion claims there is one more step to explain creation, i.e god did it. We can use "Occams razor" (Plurality shouldn't be assumed unnecessarily. So if it can be explained simply, then it should be) to say that there wasn't a creator, so we are left with a universe that has always been here, instead of a creator, that has always been here.
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05-06-2011, 02:11 PM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
Tried Iron chariots?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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05-06-2011, 03:18 PM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
I take objection to the special pleading. The problem is that they try to assert a problem(the universe must have a cause) and fix that problem by moving it(the cause is God). If everything, including the universe needs, a cause, then god, being part of the "everything" set, must also have a cause. To say otherwise would violet their premise, everything must have a cause. If some things don't need a cause(as modern science points to), then that can include both the universe and god. It's the special pleading and hypocrisy that is my issue.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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05-06-2011, 03:55 PM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
"In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from? And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?" - Carl Sagan, Cosmos.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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05-06-2011, 07:49 PM
 
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
Fascinating. Smile

Here's a question that will probably get me pelted with flying objects from the scientists in the room. (If so inclined, make it puffed pastry stuffed with Bavarian cream, please. Tongue)

Why do we need to know the cause of the Universe? What would we do with it, if we had the answers to the why of all of it?
Given what we've done thus far, with what we know right now.

Prepares for impact.
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05-06-2011, 08:29 PM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
Science is great for its practicality, and also its just awesome to learn about reality - so thats one reason. But also, if we were to find the answers to all the major questions once asked, then religion has nowhere to hide. Teenagers brought up in religion would realise quite quickly its all crap and religion would diminish. (provided of course, that the answer turned out not to be God.) That way, many of the evils and the harm caused by religion would stop, and the world would be better.
That's one way I look at it.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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05-06-2011, 11:30 PM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
(05-06-2011 03:18 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I take objection to the special pleading. The problem is that they try to assert a problem(the universe must have a cause) and fix that problem by moving it(the cause is God). If everything, including the universe needs, a cause, then god, being part of the "everything" set, must also have a cause. To say otherwise would violet their premise, everything must have a cause. If some things don't need a cause(as modern science points to), then that can include both the universe and god. It's the special pleading and hypocrisy that is my issue.

well, my concern is actually this. As an atheist i used to tell religious people that if everything has a cause, if the universe had a cause, then God also needs a cause and they kept telling me that God does not need a cause (sure i accept that they have no evidence, but they are still making a claim that is similar to our claim). So now they can keep asking that question. They can ask why the universe does not have a cause or how we actually now it.

Also, can someone help me find the evidence that physicists have for their claims? Shy
I've read The Grand Design, but it doesn't provide much evidence. Although it was a fascinating book!
thanks
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06-06-2011, 01:53 AM
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
(05-06-2011 03:55 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  "In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from? And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed?" - Carl Sagan, Cosmos.

I had always thought the exact same thing ever since I stopped being a believer. Glad to know someone else, especially someone as noteworthy as Sagan, said something like that.

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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06-06-2011, 07:32 AM
 
RE: Everything does NOT have a cause! (and somehow related to Kalam argument)
Also, through the process of discovery we can also find out many things about ourselves and around.
So in proving there is/isn't a creator, we would find out so much more about the universe which we could use to our advantage.
Mathematics is a universal set of rules which isn't metaphysical, unlike many ideas which though they need a physical body to map onto, they are still metaphysical in that they don't appear in the universe around us.
As mathematical patterns and formula appear around us everywhere we look, it would seem to suggest that there was a designer who did lay down some rules for the universe to follow.
But also, it might suggest there wasn't.

My point is, is that through the process of discovery we would discover enormous amounts about the world we live in and more knowledge is never a bad thing.
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