Everything we do is for our own benefit
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-03-2014, 11:21 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(17-03-2014 10:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-03-2014 10:29 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  Altruism isn't based on objective or subjective morality. Much research has shown that it's a component of evolution. Smile
If altruism is based on doing "good" (without expectation of self gain) and an amoralist (moral nihilist) doesn't believe in "good" then how can an amoralist strive to do good for good's sake?

If I do "good" then it is purely coincidental. My motives are something other than good's sake.

The question is not that if your motives are for good's sake, is if those motives are selfish or not. Good is just an useful example of a case in which people do things selflessly, to defeat the premise of absolute selfishness.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nach_in's post
18-03-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(17-03-2014 11:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(17-03-2014 10:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If altruism is based on doing "good" (without expectation of self gain) and an amoralist (moral nihilist) doesn't believe in "good" then how can an amoralist strive to do good for good's sake?

If I do "good" then it is purely coincidental. My motives are something other than good's sake.

The question is not that if your motives are for good's sake, is if those motives are selfish or not. Good is just an useful example of a case in which people do things selflessly, to defeat the premise of absolute selfishness.
Ah yes, fair enough.
Why would I do something selflessly?
What would be my motivator?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 05:37 AM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(17-03-2014 02:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But in reality they mean, we can't allow murder because I don't want to be murdered.
No not really there are genuine people who don't want to be assholes.
Quote:Athiests justify abortion by saying a fetus isn't a person therefore it isn't wrong to abort.
And how do you plan on justifying using women as harvesting vessels AGAINST their will??

I'm not a woman but i don't want anything growing inside my body without my permission!
Quote:But in reality they mean, abortion doesn't impact me, I can't be aborted therefore I have no need to force other people not to do it.
No in reality i don't want people to be forced to have babies they never wanted in the first place.

Majority of the abortion happens naturally anyway! so i don't see how manually aborting is any more immoral.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 06:26 AM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 01:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(17-03-2014 11:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The question is not that if your motives are for good's sake, is if those motives are selfish or not. Good is just an useful example of a case in which people do things selflessly, to defeat the premise of absolute selfishness.
Ah yes, fair enough.
Why would I do something selflessly?
What would be my motivator?

How could I possibly know that?

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 08:11 AM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
[Image: 47357750.jpg]

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like sporehux's post
18-03-2014, 11:59 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014 12:07 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 05:37 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I'm not a woman but i don't want anything growing inside my body without my permission!
Fine, but that statement is ignoring the fetus' point of view. There are two things to consider here, the woman's point of view and the fetus point of view.
A woman having an abortion is considering her own benefit, not necessarily the fetus' benefit.
A bystander holding onto your reasoning is considering the woman's POV but ignoring the fetus POV

(18-03-2014 05:37 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Majority of the abortion happens naturally anyway! so i don't see how manually aborting is any more immoral.
This is as silly as saying, the majority of people die before the age of 100 so I don't see how manually killing them is any more immoral.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 06:26 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 01:09 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Ah yes, fair enough.
Why would I do something selflessly?
What would be my motivator?

How could I possibly know that?
In order to say that an amoralist can do good in an altruistic way, we need to establish a motivation that is not selfish.

I can see how a person who believes in good and wants to be good will do something that appears altruistic however their self interest is to achieve their personal goal of being good.

I can reason that an amoralist can do what appears to be altruistic but the closest to altruistic I can think of is that they want society to be that way. e.g. They help an old lady accross the street because they want to live in a society which helps each other out, presumably so that if they are ever vulnerable then someone will help them out one day. (but this is a self interest). Even if they are catering to their own feelings of empathy, they are doing the deed to alleviate the empathy pains.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 12:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 06:26 AM)nach_in Wrote:  How could I possibly know that?
In order to say that an amoralist can do good in an altruistic way, we need to establish a motivation that is not selfish.

I can see how a person who believes in good and wants to be good will do something that appears altruistic however their self interest is to achieve their personal goal of being good.

I can reason that an amoralist can do what appears to be altruistic but the closest to altruistic I can think of is that they want society to be that way. e.g. They help an old lady accross the street because they want to live in a society which helps each other out, presumably so that if they are ever vulnerable then someone will help them out one day. (but this is a self interest). Even if they are catering to their own feelings of empathy, they are doing the deed to alleviate the empathy pains.

What does altruistic behaviour has to do with believing or not in objective morality? you're mixing things that are not mixed... You can do something altruistic just because you want to do something for others, if that also makes you feel fuzzy inside, well, that's an added bonus.
Benefiting from helping others doesn't exclude altruism. Your belief in moral good or not can play a role in your actions, but is not necessary.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 12:40 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  What does altruistic behaviour has to do with believing or not in objective morality?
It takes away the option of doing good for good's sake, therefore we need to find other options.

(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  You can do something altruistic just because you want to do something for others, if that also makes you feel fuzzy inside, well, that's an added bonus.
But why do you want to do things for others?

I guess there could be a case where a person does this out of habit or out of conditioning or out of panic (in case of an emergency situation where they haven't had time to think).

(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Benefiting from helping others doesn't exclude altruism.
It does if your reason to help is to gain the benefit.
It would be interesting to know if people whom lack empathy participate in helping people out for the sole purpose of helping others.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 01:14 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 12:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  What does altruistic behaviour has to do with believing or not in objective morality?
It takes away the option of doing good for good's sake, therefore we need to find other options.

(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  You can do something altruistic just because you want to do something for others, if that also makes you feel fuzzy inside, well, that's an added bonus.
But why do you want to do things for others?

I guess there could be a case where a person does this out of habit or out of conditioning or out of panic (in case of an emergency situation where they haven't had time to think).

(18-03-2014 12:18 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Benefiting from helping others doesn't exclude altruism.
It does if your reason to help is to gain the benefit.
It would be interesting to know if people whom lack empathy participate in helping people out for the sole purpose of helping others.

If the sole reason is to gain a benefit then altruism being excluded is a truism. The point is that both things can coexist.
As far a for reasons, maybe you just want to see someone happy, because it may make someone else unhappy, because you don't lose anything in the process or just because the opportunity presented itself and you just took it without much thought.

Indeed it would be interesting to see what people with lack of empathy think about it.

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nach_in's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: