Everything we do is for our own benefit
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-03-2014, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014 01:23 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 11:59 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Fine, but that statement is ignoring the fetus' point of view.
Do you masturbate? do you consider the "point of view" of your sperm cells that you are casually expelling out of your body? i don't think so.
Quote:A woman having an abortion is considering her own benefit, not necessarily the fetus' benefit.
Firstly a fetus is NOT a person,secondly you're constantly denying women's bodily integrity for a fetus that technically belongs to her.

If i cut my finger.. that's my choice! you can suggest that i should not cut my finger but you have no reason to say that my finger has any rights of its own,i don't see how this is any different in the case of a fetus or a sperm cell.
Quote:This is as silly as saying, the majority of people die before the age of 100 so I don't see how manually killing them is any more immoral.
Your analogy doesn't make any sense just because people die before the age of 100 doesn't mean death is a viable choice.

Abortions/miscarriages happen all the time to woman its nothing new.

I'm not saying that abortion is the best choice with an unwanted pregnancy but clearly women should have rights to decide whether they want to carry a human being inside them for 9-10 months.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014 02:30 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Do you masturbate? do you consider the "point of view" of your sperm cells that you are casually expelling out of your body? i don't think so.
That's a deeply personal question LOL!
I think maybe you have made some assumptions about me.
1. I am an amoralist thus I don't hold anything to be morally right or morally wrong
2. Given the above I don't think it is morally wrong for a mother to abort her fetus
3. I don't think it is morally wrong for sperm to be wasted
4. I don't think it is morally wrong to murder people

However, I do struggle to understand moralists point of view when they themselves consider the morality of a fetus using a mother's womb without her permission but ignore the morality of a woman killing her fetus without its permission.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Firstly a fetus is NOT a person
It can be scientifically determined that a fetus is a living human being that is a seperate and distinct entity apart from its mother.
It cannot be scientifically determined that a fetus is not a person. This is a belief system that you have constructed probably so that you can justify abortion whilst simultaneously holding a moral belief that it is wrong to harm persons. I would classify this as mental gymnastics.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  secondly you're constantly denying women's bodily integrity for a fetus that technically belongs to her.
You are assuming I am against abortion.
I am not denying a woman anything.
I am saying that I won't interfere in her life and her decisions as long as they don't impact me. (in order to tie this abortion sub topic into the original topic, my reasons to not oppose abortion are purely selfish)
You on the other hand are essentially saying that she needs your OK and luckily for her, in this instance you are OK with her having an abortion so she is free to go ahead with it.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  If i cut my finger.. that's my choice! you can suggest that i should not cut my finger but you have no reason to say that my finger has any rights of its own,i don't see how this is any different in the case of a fetus or a sperm cell.
That's correct. Apart from the nonsensical concept of "rights".
You can cut your finger if you want, it doesn't affect me, so go ahead do what you want.
A woman can kill her fetus if she wants, it doesn't affect me, so go ahead do what you want.

Given this finger analogy, my question to you is this.
Why do you have to label the fetus as "not a person"?
Let's say we could look to some authority and we do so and then low and behold we find that a fetus is a person.
Then what?
Would you then oppose abortion?
I wouldn't. I am happy for a person to be killed as long as it doesn't affect me.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:This is as silly as saying, the majority of people die before the age of 100 so I don't see how manually killing them is any more immoral.
Your analogy doesn't make any sense just because people die before the age of 100 doesn't mean death is a viable choice.
Just because fetus' die before birth doesn't mean death is a viable choice.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Abortions/miscarriages happen all the time to woman its nothing new.
What relevance does this have to the discussion?
People dying happens all the time, its nothing new.

(18-03-2014 01:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I'm not saying that abortion is the best choice with an unwanted pregnancy but clearly women should have rights to decide whether they want to carry a human being inside them for 9-10 months.
I am not sure where you get your concept of rights from?
How do you determine what is a right and what isn't a right?
Does a fetus have a right to live?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
Abortion ruined this thread.

[Image: giphy.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 03:05 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 02:57 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Abortion ruined this thread.
There have just been a couple of posts between myself and IndianAtheist regarding abortion. If you otherwise like the thread then make a post regarding "Everything we do is for our own benefit", I'm sure we can get this thread back on track.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 03:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 02:57 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Abortion ruined this thread.
There have just been a couple of posts between myself and IndianAtheist regarding abortion. If you otherwise like the thread then make a post regarding "Everything we do is for our own benefit", I'm sure we can get this thread back on track.

Actually, you should make a thread about abortion, don't get me wrong, I like the debate, but derailing good threads is just immoral Tongue

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 03:33 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 03:21 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Actually, you should make a thread about abortion, don't get me wrong, I like the debate, but derailing good threads is just immoral Tongue
But I'm Evil_monster
Remember?

And I like organic conversation. I'm not sure if I agree with the whole 1 topic 1 thread approach.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 03:36 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 02:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  but ignore the morality of a woman killing her fetus without its permission
Well its all fine you just don't understand the technicalities of it,fetus is not a person thus its not 'murder".
Quote:It can be scientifically determined that a fetus is a living human being that is a separate and distinct entity apart from its mother.
Same can be said about sperm cells and female egg cells.
Quote:It cannot be scientifically determined that a fetus is not a person.
Err its not.. its not an "Individual" its living inside a host not outside.
Quote:Would you then oppose abortion?'
I neither support or oppose abortion its just a necessary evil.
Quote:Just because fetus' die before birth doesn't mean death is a viable choice.
Well i was actually talking about female reproductive system and abortion seems to be an integral part of it.
Quote:Does a fetus have a right to live?
That is decided by its mother.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014 04:13 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(18-03-2014 03:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 02:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  but ignore the morality of a woman killing her fetus without its permission
Well its all fine you just don't understand the technicalities of it,fetus is not a person thus its not 'murder".
It's not that I don't understand the technicalties of it, it's that I don't hold the beliefs that a fetus is not a person and the beliefs that it is wrong to harm persons.

The reason why it is not murder to abort a fetus is because the government don't make it illegal. Whether the fetus is a person or not is irrelevant.
There was a point in time where abortion was illegal and in some countries it still is illegal. Does this mean that in the past a fetus was a person and in those coutries a fetus is a person?
(18-03-2014 03:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:It can be scientifically determined that a fetus is a living human being that is a separate and distinct entity apart from its mother.
Same can be said about sperm cells and female egg cells.
No that is scientifically incorrect. A human being has 46 chromosomes (23 pairs). Except for some exceptional circumstances e.g. Downs where they have 47.
A sperm or egg only has 23 chromosomes.

(18-03-2014 03:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:It cannot be scientifically determined that a fetus is not a person.
Err its not.. its not an "Individual" its living inside a host not outside.
Would a tape worm be considered as part of the human or an individual that was living off the human?
It's actually a very interesting concept trying to work out what an individual is. Humans are a collection of different cells (muscles, bone, liver, kidney skin etc) as well as some important symbiotic bacteria etc. A decent definition I read once was with regards to where the competition for resources (or infighting) were not incurred. Where the parts work so well together that they no longer compete. This is not the case with regards to a woman's body and the fetus. The woman's body has to change in order to accommodate the fetus
http://www.neatorama.com/2012/06/11/why-...cy/#!Aum14
Quote:The researchers discovered that embryo implantation sets off a process that ultimately turns off a key pathway required for the immune system to attack foreign bodies. As a result, immune cells are never recruited to the site of implantation and therefore cannot harm the developing fetus.
Otherwise the fetus would be treated as a foriegn body and attacked by the woman's body's immune system.

(18-03-2014 03:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:Just because fetus' die before birth doesn't mean death is a viable choice.
Well i was actually talking about female reproductive system and abortion seems to be an integral part of it.
Natural abortion is an integral part of that process, yes. But elective abortion is something entirely different.
Just as natural death is an integral part of the cycle of life, elective murder is something entirely different.
(18-03-2014 03:36 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
Quote:Does a fetus have a right to live?
That is decided by its mother.
Great the "personhood" of a fetus is irrelevant then and so your own moral beliefs on this matter are also irrelevant.
The only thing that is relevant is the choices of the mother. The choices of the fetus are irrelevant because the fetus has no ability to act out on its choices even if it were capable of having or making choices.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 04:21 PM
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
(17-03-2014 10:29 PM)Deidre32 Wrote:  Altruism isn't based on objective or subjective morality. Much research has shown that it's a component of evolution. Smile

Saying "its a component of evolution" doesnt explain anything - its just a truism. Like saying "its a component of humans" "its a component of biology" - the scope to too wide for explanatory power.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-03-2014, 04:41 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2014 07:57 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Everything we do is for our own benefit
Quote:Do you masturbate? do you consider the "point of view" of your sperm cells that you are casually expelling out of your body? i don't think so.

Imagine doing so...
Following the long journey of the wasted sperm.....

...sperm 1: Damn, I wanted to go down a fallopian tube and find my long lost ova and I am now on the carpet wiggling away and dying. Sadcryface2

...sperm 2: I might be lucky, my host took a porn mag in a clinic and put me in a test tube, now I am freezing away and waiting to see if I am the lucky one. Rolleyes

...sperm 430,992: Damn, My host missed ! Fuck, I had one of the best tails in testicle kingdom and would have won the race but I am dribbling down a leg - no chance of success now ! Hobo

...Sperm 503,999: Oh no....not the tissue ! Weeping

...Sperm 1,445,345: God how I hate those condoms, thought I was the fastest of all and now stuck ! Gasp

...Sperm 4,233,455: I just cant get out, my host is fucking boring. I'm going to die inside the testicle and get re-absorbed & recycled, what a waste ! Sadcryface

...Sperm 4,444,455: All I wanted was to be a normal sperm, but my host is a catholic priest and found a boy - and now I am finding my self seriously wiggling down the wrong path........ Evil_monsterEvil_monsterEvil_monster

Sperm 4,999,999: My host has chosen the oral route - I sense hydrochloric acid might be my destiny ! Drooling

...Sperm 5,930,333: Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Not castration !!!! GaspCensored

Sperm 8,993,456: I finally made it down the fellopian tubes, but where the fuck are the ova - please dont tell me this is an 80 year old ! Confused

Sperm 9,543,345:I'm on my way - but just realized she got a sex change !
Huh


Its hard being a sperm !

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Baruch's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: