Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
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16-07-2012, 10:15 PM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
(16-07-2012 12:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-07-2012 11:46 AM)Blood Wrote:  At the very least, it's reasonable to expect Hebrew/Aramaic pro-Jesus literature surviving from the relevant periods. "Christianity" should have flourished as a Judaic sect for hundreds of years, with lots of polemic against the heretical Gentile Christianity.

Of course, nothing like this occurred. Instead, we are expected to believe that "Jewish Christianity," after the unprecedented deification of a man as the Messiah, disappeared after 70 AD as "Gentile Christianity" first co-opted the movement, then took it over, then kicked the founders out while changing it completely in the process. Nothing from the original movement survived. As the Church Lady would say, "How convenient!"

The most parsimonious explanation is that there never was an authentically Jewish Jesus movement within Judea. It was a syncretizing of ex-converts from Greek mystery cultus with ex-converts from Judaism (God-fearers), located in places like Asia Minor, Alexandria, and Rome (not Judea). It should now be pretty obvious that the whole Jesus gospel legend was invented as an excuse to steal the religion from the Jews by dehumanizing them.
I disagree. Why would there have to be "literature". What "literature" is there about the many other "sons" of god, who were accorded that title ? There were many. It presupposes his importance. He was NOT unique. By the time the cult gets underway, there is literature from the 50's.
It's reasonable to expect Jewish literature based on the Christian "historical Jesus" paradigm. I'm not defending that paradigm.
The fact that there is no Jewish literature is just another strong data point that there was no Jesus movement in Judea.
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17-07-2012, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2012 07:16 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus




Obviously. Big Grin

Well, anybody I know, got some intelligence, does some hallucinogens, knows where that "god" stuff comes from. Thumbsup

EDIT: Moar!

http://www.clinicalanthropology.com/






T'was a play, an act, a drama... which is what I said last year or so to explain alla supposed copies of the NT. Dodgy





Quote:However, Allegro's work has been adopted by some alternative authors. In May 2006, Michael Hoffman of egodeath.com and Jan Irvin wrote an article for The Journal of Higher Criticism[7] entitled Wasson and Allegro on the Tree of Knowledge as Amanita [8] that suggested that Allegro's work should be evaluated on its merits like that of any other scholar and not dismissed merely because its arguments fall outside the mainstream. In 2008 Prof. John Rush of Sierra College published Failed God [9] that also gives heavy support for Allegro's theories. In November 2009 The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross was reprinted in a 40th anniversary edition with a preface by Jan Irvin, a foreword by Judith Anne Brown, and a 30 page addendum by Prof. Carl A.P. Ruck of Boston University with new linguistic evidence that supports Allegro's theories.[10]
Quote:"The concerted and biased attempts to destroy Allegro's discoveries have failed. The confirmatory evidence is mounting in his favor. The critics can now raise their voices again. Let us hope that they do, since the matter is not settled, but they should be advised to do so with more careful consideration. This book that many have prized in secret is now available again. It demands the serious consideration of theologians, mythologists, and students of religion. No account of the history of the Church, both West and East, can afford to leave the poor despicable fungus unconsidered, nor the role that entheogens in general have played in the evolution of European civilization." ~ Professor Carl A. P. Ruck, Boston University
~from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Allegro

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18-07-2012, 06:46 AM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2012 07:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
(17-07-2012 06:19 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  EDIT: Moar!

http://www.clinicalanthropology.com/
Even if the mushroom theory is not exactly correct, it's funny that Buber also, supports this, in his own way, in his analysis of the Garden myth, (Good and Evil P 2, section 1).

-->> woman talking with snake, woman seeing in the tree that which is not there, (hallucination), the "tree", (mushroom ??) bestowing the gift of understanding, "it must be a 'contemplation' that is meant, but it is a strange dreamlike kind of contemplation. Ans so, sunk in contemplation, the woman plucks, eats, and hands to the man, ....in dream lassitude."

Also Jesus as an "experience" is right there in front in : Luke 24:32 "They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" ie they were not saying they saw him, but "experienced him".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen#J...ristianity
http://www.egodeath.com/WassonEdenTree.h...c135889181

Dang. Now I gotta research "rooms".

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18-07-2012, 06:55 AM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
Good to hear John Allegro speak. I couldn't listen to the Rush guy, as he was constantly clearing his throat.
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18-07-2012, 10:41 AM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
Modern history and ancient history are two separate disciplines, with differing methods of analysis and interpretation.

The Historical Jesus is a reconstruction of "Jesus" using modern historical methods. Historians draw on scriptures, religious texts, other historical sources and archaeological evidence in an attempt to reconstruct the life of Jesus in his historical and cultural context.

In the late 1st and early 2nd century, a few documents remain which generally refer to Christians, but there is scant actual reference to a Jesus per se. There is an obscure reference to a Jewish leader called "Chrestus" in Suetonius; in Rome, during the reign of emperor Claudius (c. AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the instigation of Chrestus". Probably the most "reliable" writing comes from Tacitus.

Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the c. 64 Great Fire of Rome, writing in c. 116:
"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians (Chrestians) by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Tacitus does not reference the source of his information here, but is known to have drawn on many earlier (yet lost)historical works in the Annals, and he may have used official sources from a Roman archive in this case. However, if Tacitus had been copying from an official source(meeting minutes/court records), some scholars would expect him to have labeled Pilate correctly as a prefect rather than a procurator - so there are historical discrepancies that scholars deal with... and frequently admit to historical reference.

Tacitus writing does give a description of widespread prejudices about Christianity(possibly unexpected by a christian scholar?) as well as criticism of Rome itself, and a few precise details about "Christus" (the source of which remains unclear): Christus was a Jew and a criminal whom Pontius Pilate had executed. As well, this Christus became the namesake of a new religious movement which began in Judea, called Christianity, which was spread around the city of Rome during Nero's reign.

At the time, the execution of an itinerate healer/speaker, seemed to be a bit of a far off, local concern, which became blown out of proportion by the time the news got back to Rome. That's the nutshell.


_____________________

This reminds me of the movie, Unforgiven; former gunslinger is lured back to one more job, after he's given (unbeknownst to him) erroneous information of an incident involving someone he doesn't even know.

It doesn't mean something didn't happen; it just means that whatever happened, it probably didn't happen that way, for those reasons, to any of those people in particular, and it probably didn't actually end that way, or at least not the way it was recorded to have ended.

So here's a thought: why isn't this shit in the pseudo-science/conspiracy thread of life? Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-07-2012, 12:29 PM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
Why the fuck isn't theism in the conspiracy forum? It's all a pseudoscientifical conspiracy... Tongue

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18-07-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
(18-07-2012 12:29 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Why the fuck isn't theism in the conspiracy forum? It's all a pseudoscientifical conspiracy... Tongue
Probably because the overwhelming majority of our planet's population would have to be involved in that conspiracy. Drinking Beverage

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19-07-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
Actually the Tacitus quote is about the only thing anchoring Jesus in reality. I understand that it can be explained as hearsay, but it can equally well be defended as a neutral observation by a guy who did some genuine research.

Far better, I think, to just go the texts themselves. If the Gospels had been lost and only dug up 25 years ago, nobody reading them today would defend them as historical. It is the crushing weight of 2000 years of orthodoxy and acculturation that gives them such aura and credibility.
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21-07-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-07-2012, 12:29 AM
RE: Evidence Against A Historical Jesus
Hey, Bucky... today I learned that Tarsus was a hotbed of Mithraic activity. And it mighta been a cult of Perseus too, at the same time, there, at that time. I know you've been looking into Greek mystery cults as the source of the salvation paradigm, but what about Mithra? I found this book -

http://www.amazon.com/The-Origins-Mithra...0195067886

...trying to avoid the Zeitgeist crowd... Dodgy

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