Evidence Of Absence.
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23-08-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 05:49 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Maybe the problem is that we're just defining belief too differently. If I asked you if you think that Pythagorean theorem is true in Euclidean geometry, and you answer "yes", I think we could say that this is something you believe, as I would define belief as something you think is true, and if you answer "no", I don't we could say that you know it.

The fact that you do not realize the Pythagorean theorem is only true in certain geometries does not make my knowledge of it a "belief". You might have a belief but I don't. I know it.

I don't think we'll ever be in agreement on this, but I think you have a justified true belief that Pythagorean theorem is true. Big Grin

Belief = you think it's true

I just don't see how you can know something without believing it. I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree. Cool
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23-08-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:44 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not crazy about that statement - it seems too strong and not quite on the mark.

I'd state that for something to be possible it requires that there be no definite/solid/convincing counter-evidence.

Something along those lines.

Without evidence, I think the best we can say is that for all we know, it might be possible and it might not....we just don't know yet.

Using your blatant stupidity, anything and everything is possible.

Typical theist bullshit.

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23-08-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:18 PM)Free Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not crazy about that statement - it seems too strong and not quite on the mark.

I'd state that for something to be possible it requires that there be no definite/solid/convincing counter-evidence.

Something along those lines.

If ...

No evidence is available to demonstrate any said possibility ...

Then ...

There can be no definite/solid/convincing counter evidence * (See possible exception in Note below).

That does not follow. Evidence for and evidence against do not depend on each other's existence.

Quote:Because ...

An existence- the non evidenced proposed possibility- has not been demonstrated to be in existence to counter with any physical or demonstrable evidence.

I can't parse that.

Quote:Question ...

How do you counter that- the non evidenced proposed possibility- when it has not be demonstrated to be in existence?

I don't need to counter it - I simply dismiss it.

Quote:Please explain how, or perhaps agree to the following:

* Note: The only known way to counter a non evidenced proposed possibility is with the demonstrable evidence from Evidence of Absence.

I don't agree with that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2015, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2015 05:38 PM by Free.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 04:18 PM)Free Wrote:  If ...

No evidence is available to demonstrate any said possibility ...

Then ...

There can be no definite/solid/convincing counter evidence * (See possible exception in Note below).

That does not follow. Evidence for and evidence against do not depend on each other's existence.

That's not my point. My point is this, specifically:

If there is no evidence available to demonstrate the existence any non evidenced proposed possibility, then there can be no evidence available to counter the same non evidenced proposed possibility.

What evidence would be available to counter something that has not been demonstrated to be in existence?


Quote:
Quote:Because ...

An existence- the non evidenced proposed possibility- has not been demonstrated to be in existence to counter with any physical or demonstrable evidence.

I can't parse that.

You can if you try.

Quote:
Quote:Question ...

How do you counter that- the non evidenced proposed possibility- when it has not be demonstrated to be in existence?

I don't need to counter it - I simply dismiss it.

And why do you dismiss it?

Chas Wrote:
Quote:Please explain how, or perhaps agree to the following:

* Note: The only known way to counter a non evidenced proposed possibility is with the demonstrable evidence from Evidence of Absence.

I don't agree with that.

Can you propose an alternative?

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23-08-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:50 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I just don't see how you can know something without believing it. I reckon we'll have to agree to disagree. Cool


I think we should pursue this. It is interesting.

#sigh
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23-08-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 05:27 PM)Free Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  That does not follow. Evidence for and evidence against do not depend on each other's existence.

That's not my point. My point is this, specifically:

If there is no evidence available to demonstrate the existence any non evidenced proposed possibility, then there can be no evidence available to counter the same non evidenced proposed possibility.

What evidence would be available to counter something that has not been demonstrated to be in existence?

Evidence that it can't exist.

Quote:
Quote:I can't parse that.

You can if you try.

No, really. Please re-phrase it - it is ungrammatical.

Quote:
Quote:I don't need to counter it - I simply dismiss it.

And why do you dismiss it?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

Quote:
Chas Wrote:I don't agree with that.

Can you propose an alternative?

Yes, dismiss unevidenced claims.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 05:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 05:27 PM)Free Wrote:  That's not my point. My point is this, specifically:

If there is no evidence available to demonstrate the existence any non evidenced proposed possibility, then there can be no evidence available to counter the same non evidenced proposed possibility.

What evidence would be available to counter something that has not been demonstrated to be in existence?

Evidence that it can't exist.

You are going to hate this question but ...

What possible evidence?

Chas Wrote:“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

Yes. That's right. It is an assertion, not a hypothesis, theory, or fact.

We can rightfully dismiss non evidenced proposed possibilities because there is no evidence to support them. We don't actually have to provide any evidence to counter them. It's not our burden of proof.

Chas Wrote:
Quote:Can you propose an alternative?

Yes, dismiss unevidenced claims.

I really don't have any problem with this, as the burden of proof is not upon us.

At the end of the day, we can dismiss all non evidenced proposed possibilities based upon a total and complete lack of evidence.

We can dismiss them because they have been demonstrated as not existing.

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23-08-2015, 06:01 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 03:54 PM)Free Wrote:  1 + 1 = 2 will not be wrong anywhere in the universe at any time.

1+1 = 10. Just sayin'.

Yes, but the basic fact that one thing added to one thing is equal to two things doesn't change. You're just using different symbols to express that fact. The "10" in your example still represents the number "two".
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23-08-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 04:44 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Without evidence, I think the best we can say is that for all we know, it might be possible and it might not....we just don't know yet.
The burdon of proof is on the claimant so we would have thought they would produce some compelling evidence along with their properly formulated claim.

If the claim isn't properly forumulated we could insist that the claimant properly define their claim (i.e. defining observable evidence as well as falsifiable criteria) in order for us to proceed with evaluating it. We ought to then not put any more effort into evaluating the conclusion of the claim until they do so.

But really the burden of proof is on the claimant so even if the claim is properly formulated we could wait for them to present some evidence in support of their properly formulated claim and evidence showing that the falsifiable criteria did not falsify it. Depends how excited we get about the properly formulated claim whether we want to rush in to find the evidence or insist that the claimant does so.
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23-08-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(23-08-2015 06:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 04:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  1+1 = 10. Just sayin'.

Yes, but the basic fact that one thing added to one thing is equal to two things doesn't change. You're just using different symbols to express that fact. The "10" in your example still represents the number "two".

Some day you will actually "get" Girly.

Ohmy

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