Evidence Of Absence.
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24-08-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I don't. I expect you to be honest and agree that such a proof does not exist.

I expect a position of certainty to require proof. No one can be a 7.0 since the proof does not exist.

Who said proof is required to be certain of non existence of something?

Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof.

Evidence (or lack thereof) only allows for tentative conclusions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2015, 09:35 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who said proof is required to be certain of non existence of something?

Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof.

Evidence (or lack thereof) only allows for tentative conclusions.

"Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof. "
Not when evidence or proof is nonsensical to the claim such that all that could be expected is no evidence.

The "proof" of nonexistence is a paucity of evidence and observation, as that is all that can be expected.

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24-08-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:26 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Who said proof is required to be certain of non existence of something?

Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof.

Evidence (or lack thereof) only allows for tentative conclusions.

I'd be right there with you in agreeing if we were talking about proof positive for a claim. But we aren't

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24-08-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
Screwed up post.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2015 10:15 AM by Free.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:18 AM)Free Wrote:  I know what he is saying. But he remains at 6.9 because, as he's claimed in the past, "you claim no gods exist. You have not proved it." We've had this discussion on another thread right HERE.

He expects a negative to be proven.

No, I don't. I expect you to be honest and agree that such a proof does not exist.

I expect a position of certainty to require proof. No one can be a 7.0 since the proof does not exist.

Since the proof does not exist, it is completely unreasonable for you to expect it to be provided as a requirement to be 7.0.

And that specifically demonstrates my entire point.

It would appear you are at a crossroads.

What say you?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 10:18 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2015 10:22 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof.

Evidence (or lack thereof) only allows for tentative conclusions.

"Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof. "
Not when evidence or proof is nonsensical to the claim such that all that could be expected is no evidence.

The "proof" of nonexistence is a paucity of evidence and observation, as that is all that can be expected.

We're back to the Garage Dragon scenario. Taking the stance that while it is completely impossible to detect such a dragon we must not say unequivocally and without reservation that it doesn't exist seems illogical.

A claim for which no evidence has been found or can be found should be dismissed offhand.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-08-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 10:18 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Intellectually honest 100% certainty requires proof. "
Not when evidence or proof is nonsensical to the claim such that all that could be expected is no evidence.

The "proof" of nonexistence is a paucity of evidence and observation, as that is all that can be expected.

We're back to the Garage Dragon scenario. Taking the stance that while it is completely impossible to detect such a dragon we must not say unequivocally and without reservation that it doesn't exist. A claim for which no evidence has been found or can be found should be dismissed offhand.

Sure, you can dismiss it, and any other claims that have no evidence.

But this runs deeper than a mere act of dismissal, I think.

Existence of anything has always been determined with evidence. Even a small amount of evidence has the ability to convert a baseless assertion into a hypothesis.

My contention here is specifically an answer to this question:

What is required to determine that something is possible?

If the lack of any and all evidence is to be counted as positive evidence that demonstrates the non existence of the possibility, why then should anyone say that the non existence of the possibility has not be demonstrated?

The truth is, the lack of evidence is positive demonstrable evidence that demonstrates the total and complete absence of the possibility.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 10:26 AM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 10:18 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  We're back to the Garage Dragon scenario. Taking the stance that while it is completely impossible to detect such a dragon we must not say unequivocally and without reservation that it doesn't exist. A claim for which no evidence has been found or can be found should be dismissed offhand.

Sure, you can dismiss it, and any other claims that have no evidence.

But this runs deeper than a mere act of dismissal, I think.

Existence of anything has always been determined with evidence. Even a small amount of evidence has the ability to convert a baseless assertion into a hypothesis.

My contention here is specifically an answer to this question:

What is required to determine that something is possible?

If the lack of any and all evidence is to be counted as positive evidence that demonstrates the non existence of the possibility, why then should anyone say that the non existence of the possibility has not be demonstrated?

The truth is, the lack of evidence is positive demonstrable evidence that demonstrates the total and complete absence of the possibility.

I think we're in violent agreement.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-08-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 10:02 AM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I don't. I expect you to be honest and agree that such a proof does not exist.

I expect a position of certainty to require proof. No one can be a 7.0 since the proof does not exist.

Since the proof does not exist, it is completely unreasonable for you to expect it to be provided as a requirement to be 7.0.

And that specifically demonstrates my entire point.

It would appear you are at a crossroads.

What say you?

Not sure of him, but I would say since the proof does not exist, it's completely pointless or unreasonable to proclaim a 7. There is no discerning difference in practical matters.

Proof should be required of all claims to proclaim certain knowledge. Otherwise just remain at ignostic to the claim or at a default state until further understanding of the claim.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-08-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 10:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 10:02 AM)Free Wrote:  Since the proof does not exist, it is completely unreasonable for you to expect it to be provided as a requirement to be 7.0.

And that specifically demonstrates my entire point.

It would appear you are at a crossroads.

What say you?

Not sure of him, but I would say since the proof does not exist, it's completely pointless or unreasonable to proclaim a 7. There is no discerning difference in practical matters.

Proof should be required of all claims to proclaim certain knowledge. Otherwise just remain at ignostic to the claim or at a default state until further understanding of the claim.

Again, you are asking for evidence that does not exist to be provided to warrant a 7.0 Atheistic position.

How do you arrive at the conclusion that it is pointless or unreasonable to proclaim a 7.0 position when there is absolutely no reason- such as evidence- whatsoever to contest it?

What is unreasonable about it?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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