Evidence Of Absence.
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24-08-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The "proof" of nonexistence is a paucity of evidence and observation, as that is all that can be expected.
If I say "I have no evidence that it is raining therefore it is not raining", Do you think my statement is truth?






Just because you assume something doesn't exist does that then let you lower the bar and claim that you don't need evidence "in this special case lack of evidence is evidence of absence"?

How about this question for a better comparison. I have no evidence that Santa Clause is real (and I have looked at the specific claims made for Santa Claus by people who believe in him), therefore he is not real.

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24-08-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:16 PM)Free Wrote:  John: Absolute knowledge is unattainable.
Jack: If that were true, how can we know that what you are saying is the absolute truth?
John: You can't because absolute knowledge is unattainable.

It is an unfalsifiable claim at best, and certainly demonstrated as circular.

Consider the alternative: the contrary position - "absolute knowledge is attainable" - is even less meaningful. It cannot be generalised beyond itself, because it is still trivially observable that sensory perception is flawed and all external claims are contingent. So, if true, it's as true as "this statement is true" is true. I'd be impressed to see anyone argue that that leads anywhere. So this too is tautologically unfalsifiable by definition.

Any fundamental epistemological argument is unfalsifiable and circular. That's why it's metaphysical. But so what? Not liking a thing is not grounds for rejecting a thing.

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24-08-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:45 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If I say "I have no evidence that it is raining therefore it is not raining", Do you think my statement is truth?






Just because you assume something doesn't exist does that then let you lower the bar and claim that you don't need evidence "in this special case lack of evidence is evidence of absence"?

How about this question for a better comparison. I have no evidence that Santa Clause is real (and I have looked at the specific claims made for Santa Claus by people who believe in him), therefore he is not real.

You just crossed the line. You will be sent to Santa Claus hell for that; a frozen wasteland with toys such as Chuckie and Barney tormenting you for all of eternity.

Your fate is sealed.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:16 PM)Free Wrote:  John: Absolute knowledge is unattainable.
Jack: If that were true, how can we know that what you are saying is the absolute truth?
John: You can't because absolute knowledge is unattainable.

It is an unfalsifiable claim at best, and certainly demonstrated as circular.

Consider the alternative: the contrary position - "absolute knowledge is attainable" - is even less meaningful. It cannot be generalised beyond itself, because it is still trivially observable that sensory perception is flawed and all external claims are contingent. So, if true, it's as true as "this statement is true" is true. I'd be impressed to see anyone argue that that leads anywhere. So this too is tautologically unfalsifiable by definition.

Any fundamental epistemological argument is unfalsifiable and circular. That's why it's metaphysical. But so what? Not liking a thing is not grounds for rejecting a thing.

Something exists.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Consider the alternative: the contrary position - "absolute knowledge is attainable" - is even less meaningful. It cannot be generalised beyond itself, because it is still trivially observable that sensory perception is flawed and all external claims are contingent. So, if true, it's as true as "this statement is true" is true. I'd be impressed to see anyone argue that that leads anywhere. So this too is tautologically unfalsifiable by definition.

Any fundamental epistemological argument is unfalsifiable and circular. That's why it's metaphysical. But so what? Not liking a thing is not grounds for rejecting a thing.

Something exists.

Big Grin

Yes, and?

It takes a fuckton more than just "existence exists" to generate an interesting or meaningful conclusion.

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24-08-2015, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2015 02:23 PM by Free.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 02:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:56 PM)Free Wrote:  Something exists.

Big Grin

Yes, and?

It takes a fuckton more than just "existence exists" to generate an interesting or meaningful conclusion.

I thought it would be obvious that since "something exists" it demonstrates absolute knowledge. It doesn't matter what exists, but only the reality that we know for a certainty that something exists, and it exists independent of our own personal or collective human existence.

This can not be demonstrated if absolute knowledge was not a reality.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 12:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  He maintains that you are misrepresenting him.

I therefore conclude that your straw man is irrelevant.

A summation of what I do say such that you can see how I use the word conclusion:

"Yeah, based on the current paucity of evidence demonstrating positive proof of life existing anywhere other than Earth, all we can conclude is that aliens don't exist elsewhere. But life is PLAUSIBLE to exist, so we can hypothesize it should exist somewhere else, so we continue to test that hypothesis. But without evidence demonstrating that life does exist elsewhere, we can't conclude it actually does (even though it is plausible)."

cjlr,

Do you agree with TBD that it is reasonable to conclude that aliens don't exist?
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24-08-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:55 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:45 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How about this question for a better comparison. I have no evidence that Santa Clause is real (and I have looked at the specific claims made for Santa Claus by people who believe in him), therefore he is not real.

You just crossed the line. You will be sent to Santa Claus hell for that; a frozen wasteland with toys such as Chuckie and Barney tormenting you for all of eternity.

Your fate is sealed.

Big Grin

He'll give me coal and switches for Christmas. But to a geologist, coal is a fucking awesome gift. A rock you can light on fire? Fuck yeah.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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24-08-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 02:19 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:07 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A summation of what I do say such that you can see how I use the word conclusion:

"Yeah, based on the current paucity of evidence demonstrating positive proof of life existing anywhere other than Earth, all we can conclude is that aliens don't exist elsewhere. But life is PLAUSIBLE to exist, so we can hypothesize it should exist somewhere else, so we continue to test that hypothesis. But without evidence demonstrating that life does exist elsewhere, we can't conclude it actually does (even though it is plausible)."

cjlr,

Do you agree with TBD that it is reasonable to conclude that aliens don't exist?

His quote - which you have reproduced in its entirely, for reasons I cannot quite comprehend - states that we cannot conclude that it does exist.

You are asking me whether I agree that with the statement that we can conclude that it does not exist.

The particularly astute members of the audience might have noticed that these statements are not equivalent.

Given that BeardedDude clearly stated A, and that you have repeatedly asked whether I agree with BeardedDude that B, I can certainly conclude that you're either powerfully ignorant or hopelessly dishonest. So the answer is no; I do not agree with your straw man.

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24-08-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 02:14 PM)Free Wrote:  I thought it would be obvious that since "something exists" it demonstrates absolute knowledge. It doesn't matter what exists, but only the reality that we know for a certainty that something exists, and it exists independent of our own personal or collective human existence.

That doesn't follow - "existence exists" does not imply that "existence exists without me".
(clearly illustrating the aforementioned need for additional premises)

(24-08-2015 02:14 PM)Free Wrote:  This can not be demonstrated if absolute knowledge was not a reality.

It cannot be demonstrated at all. It's a self-justifying unfalsifiable premise, just like its converse.

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