Evidence Of Absence.
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22-08-2015, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 22-08-2015 03:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 02:06 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I just can't get my head around someone knowing something without believing it to be true.

I don't believe there's any room for belief in analytical knowledge. There are conjectures but those are more like best guesses than beliefs. The example I gave before was the Pythagorean theorem is valid in Euclidean geometry but not in spherical geometry. This I know. So should I believe the Pythagorean theorem or not? I just don't see that there's anything to believe. There is no room for belief even in the axioms. I don't "believe" them I stipulate them to see where they lead.

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22-08-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 02:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 02:06 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I just can't get my head around someone knowing something without believing it to be true.

I don't believe there's any room for belief in analytical knowledge. There are conjectures but those are more like best guesses than beliefs. The example I gave before was the Pythagorean theorem is valid in Euclidean geometry but not in spherical geometry. This I know. So should I believe the Pythagorean theorem or not? I just don't see that there's anything to believe. There is no room for belief even in the axioms. I don't "believe" them I stipulate them to see where they lead.

Quite. If premise then conclusion does not speak to the "truth" of the premises; a constructed ruleset generates results only within the context of itself. I don't have to believe any particular geometry is universally true in order to have certain knowledge of its concomitant theorems.

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22-08-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 02:15 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 02:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  No. You always need evidence if you want to be non-zero on the scale. Drinking Beverage

Sure, but making a conclusion without conclusive evidence would require faith, right?

No, just no. Facepalm
Making a tentative conclusion based on some amount of evidence is part of the scientific method.

Why do you couch everything in either/or, absolute terms? Things in general are more nuanced, more complex than that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 03:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 02:15 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Sure, but making a conclusion without conclusive evidence would require faith, right?

No, just no. Facepalm
Making a tentative conclusion based on some amount of evidence is part of the scientific method.

Why do you couch everything in either/or, absolute terms? Things in general are more nuanced, more complex than that.

No, just no. Facepalm

Making conclusions on suggestive evidence is not wise. People who are interested in truth, form hypotheses from suggestive evidence. Then we go about trying to falsify and/or validate that hypothesis. Lack of validation doesn't render the hypothesis false, and likewise, lack of falsification doesn't validate the hypothesis. If we continue to gather more positive evidence than negative evidence, we might form a working hypothesis, or perhaps even a theory, but for those of us who are only interested in truth, we don't make a conclusion until we have conclusive evidence.
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22-08-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 07:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 03:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, just no. Facepalm
Making a tentative conclusion based on some amount of evidence is part of the scientific method.

Why do you couch everything in either/or, absolute terms? Things in general are more nuanced, more complex than that.

No, just no. Facepalm

Making conclusions on suggestive evidence is not wise. People who are interested in truth, form hypotheses from suggestive evidence. Then we go about trying to falsify and/or validate that hypothesis. Lack of validation doesn't render the hypothesis false, and likewise, lack of falsification doesn't validate the hypothesis. If we continue to gather more positive evidence than negative evidence, we might form a working hypothesis, or perhaps even a theory, but for those of us who are only interested in truth, we don't make a conclusion until we have conclusive evidence.

What about if you reinsert Chas's "tentative"? That seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

Dodgy

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22-08-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 07:22 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 07:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  No, just no. Facepalm

Making conclusions on suggestive evidence is not wise. People who are interested in truth, form hypotheses from suggestive evidence. Then we go about trying to falsify and/or validate that hypothesis. Lack of validation doesn't render the hypothesis false, and likewise, lack of falsification doesn't validate the hypothesis. If we continue to gather more positive evidence than negative evidence, we might form a working hypothesis, or perhaps even a theory, but for those of us who are only interested in truth, we don't make a conclusion until we have conclusive evidence.

What about if you reinsert Chas's "tentative"? That seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

Dodgy

What about just be honest with yourself and others and call it a hypothesis?
Dodgy
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22-08-2015, 08:01 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 07:56 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 07:22 PM)DLJ Wrote:  What about if you reinsert Chas's "tentative"? That seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

Dodgy

What about just be honest with yourself and others and call it a hypothesis?
Dodgy

Actually, I would... "conclusion" is a little too 'conclusive' for my taste. But the point is about degrees of certainty so 'tentative' or 'interim' conclusion is fine by me.

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22-08-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 07:16 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 03:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, just no. Facepalm
Making a tentative conclusion based on some amount of evidence is part of the scientific method.

Why do you couch everything in either/or, absolute terms? Things in general are more nuanced, more complex than that.

No, just no. Facepalm

Making conclusions on suggestive evidence is not wise. People who are interested in truth, form hypotheses from suggestive evidence. Then we go about trying to falsify and/or validate that hypothesis. Lack of validation doesn't render the hypothesis false, and likewise, lack of falsification doesn't validate the hypothesis. If we continue to gather more positive evidence than negative evidence, we might form a working hypothesis, or perhaps even a theory, but for those of us who are only interested in truth, we don't make a conclusion until we have conclusive evidence.

You obviously missed the word 'tentative'. Try harder. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 07:56 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 07:22 PM)DLJ Wrote:  What about if you reinsert Chas's "tentative"? That seems reasonable enough, doesn't it?

Dodgy

What about just be honest with yourself and others and call it a hypothesis?
Dodgy

How about you improve your vocabulary?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-08-2015, 08:26 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(22-08-2015 08:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-08-2015 07:56 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  What about just be honest with yourself and others and call it a hypothesis?
Dodgy

How about you improve your vocabulary?

Quote:Conclusions of science are reliable, though tentative.

The same goes for 'assessments', too.

So, by that definition, the word 'tentative' is actually superfluous.

Interesting.

Consider

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