Evidence Of Absence.
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24-08-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 01:16 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 12:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Even taking that at face value, you'd have to toss in the false notion that the conclusion was absolute - if it isn't, your objection is meaningless.
(and it isn't - the conclusion is implicitly and necessarily no more certain than the premises, since that's how logic works)

I understand this, but it still makes the positive claim that certainty is unattainable. I'm only pointing out the obvious with that assertion, which is- if it were true- we cannot accept the assertion itself as being true.

Quote:No.

John: Absolute knowledge is unattainable.
Jack: If that were true, how can we know that what you are saying is the absolute truth?
John: You can't because absolute knowledge is unattainable.

It is an unfalsifiable claim at best, and certainly demonstrated as circular.

That's not a position that would make sense to take.. there is no reason to conclude it's positively unknownable. It's unknown if it's unknowable or knowledgeable and therefore not justified to be absolutely certain of which either way. It's also worthy to be skeptical of the unknown of what is unknown as well.

You continually want to refer to these concepts in an on/off black/white type manner as if, if you don't conclude one way you are concluding the alternative. It's not the only scenario when there is an unknown of either way. To conclude not certain about X isn't to conclude Y positively.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-08-2015, 07:57 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2015 08:04 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 07:55 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 07:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Knowledge isn't only that definition but the scale should have a further stance if 7 isn't taken as more close to the absolute knowledge type of Knowing. Otherwise it's rather odd to not include a further step on the scale

I realize knowledge isn't only that definition, but that definition of knowledge (100% certainty) is not representative of reality.

Which is why I don't think 1 & 7 represent reasonable claims.

But I think it's sensible to keep and view the descriptions of 1&7 of that way because there are people who to that degree still do proclaim it. Just like people in other cases may claim they have absolute certainty their spouse is faithful to them but they at times are wrong about it.

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24-08-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 07:09 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  For a claim that can have no evidence (something that doesn't exist, not existing), I can expect no evidence. So when I see no evidence everywhere and no demonstration of plausibility, I can conclude no god exists.

Take notice that I am not using the word "know" so as to say that I "know" no gods exist, I think that is a pointless phrase in the end. I know no god claim has ever been demonstrated plausible. This all I need to conclude that god cannot exist.

I like your differentiation between “knowing” and “concluding”.

con·clude
kənˈklo͞od/Submit
verb

2.
arrive at a judgment or opinion by reasoning.
synonyms: deduce, infer, gather, judge, decide, conjecture, surmise, extrapolate, figure, reckon

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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24-08-2015, 08:33 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 07:56 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 01:16 PM)Free Wrote:  I understand this, but it still makes the positive claim that certainty is unattainable. I'm only pointing out the obvious with that assertion, which is- if it were true- we cannot accept the assertion itself as being true.


John: Absolute knowledge is unattainable.
Jack: If that were true, how can we know that what you are saying is the absolute truth?
John: You can't because absolute knowledge is unattainable.

It is an unfalsifiable claim at best, and certainly demonstrated as circular.

It's unknown if it's unknowable or knowledgeable and therefore not justified to be absolutely certain of which either way.

Right here is a direct point of contention.

If something is "unknowable," it implies that it is not possible to acquire that particular knowledge. If something is not possible, then it does not exist.

Only things in existence are possible, and if knowledge is not possible, then it does not exist to obtain.

Quote:It's also worthy to be skeptical of the unknown of what is unknown as well.

The unknown, certainly. But the unknowable? It does not exist.

Quote:You continually want to refer to these concepts in an on/off black/white type manner as if, if you don't conclude one way you are concluding the alternative. It's not the only scenario when there is an unknown of either way. To conclude not certain about X isn't to conclude Y positively.

If all you have in the equation is an X and a Y, and Y is invalidated, all the remains is X, unless other verifiable options are presented.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Only things in existence are possible, and if knowledge is not possible, then it does not exist to obtain.

Neither of those statements is true.

Do you really think there are no more inventions possible?

There are undecidable propositions in mathematics. There is a truth, but it is unobtainable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Only things in existence are possible, and if knowledge is not possible, then it does not exist to obtain.

Neither of those statements is true.

Both are true.

Quote:Do you really think there are no more inventions possible?

I didn't imply they weren't.

Quote:There are undecidable propositions in mathematics. There is a truth, but it is unobtainable.

If the truth exists, it can be obtained.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-08-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 09:40 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  Neither of those statements is true.

Both are true.

Quote:Do you really think there are no more inventions possible?

I didn't imply they weren't.

New inventions don't exist.
"Only things in existence are possible"
Therefore no new inventions are possible. Drinking Beverage

Quote:
Quote:There are undecidable propositions in mathematics. There is a truth, but it is unobtainable.

If the truth exists, it can be obtained.

No, you are out of your depth there.

There are questions that have an answer that we cannot find, e.g. the Halting Problem, Hilbert's Tenth Problem.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-08-2015, 07:48 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(24-08-2015 10:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 09:40 PM)Free Wrote:  Both are true.


I didn't imply they weren't.

New inventions don't exist.
"Only things in existence are possible"
Therefore no new inventions are possible. Drinking Beverage

Please do not try to pull off a "Matt." Here is the quote in full context:

Quote:If something is "unknowable," it implies that it is not possible to acquire that particular knowledge. If something is not possible, then it does not exist.

Only things in existence are possible, and if knowledge is not possible, then it does not exist to obtain.

How you do not determine the subject matter to be in regards to "unknowable" is beyond me. We are talking about whether or not knowledge exists, or does not exist.

We are not speaking about things that are demonstrably possible, such as inventions.

Quote:
Quote:If the truth exists, it can be obtained.

No, you are out of your depth there.

There are questions that have an answer that we cannot find, e.g. the Halting Problem, Hilbert's Tenth Problem.

Firstly, the answer must be demonstrated as being capable of existing. Then, if those questions truly have an answer, then its only a matter of time before they are answered.

If they have an answer, then the answer already exists. You may not yet know the answer, but if it's there, it exists.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-08-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
There is a class of mathematical problems whose truth value is known to be undecidable, i.e. it has been mathematically proven that we cannot know if they are true or false. One of these is the halting problem, as Chas pointed out.

Wikipedia article


Quote:The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an "effective procedure" (e.g., a computer program, but it could be any sort of algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers (arithmetic). For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system.

Bolding mine.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-08-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(25-08-2015 08:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  There is a class of mathematical problems whose truth value is known to be undecidable, i.e. it has been mathematically proven that we cannot know if they are true or false. One of these is the halting problem, as Chas pointed out.

Wikipedia article


Quote:The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an "effective procedure" (e.g., a computer program, but it could be any sort of algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers (arithmetic). For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system.

Bolding mine.

In those cases, if the knowledge is not possible, then you cannot determine if it even exists.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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