Evidence Of Absence.
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29-08-2015, 06:53 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 09:21 AM by Free.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(28-08-2015 09:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 06:35 PM)Free Wrote:  If it isn't a supernatural claim, then the only other option is natural. If it is natural, then it must exist under natural laws. If it does, it cannot have any supernatural attributes.

Therefore, it is not a god either.

There is no coherent definition of any gods.

Some gods with somewhat well-defined attributes can be proven to not exist, e.g. omni³ ones, since the definition leads to contradiction. But it is not possible to prove the non-existence of the undefined.

The supposed God or gods we are speaking about is of supernatural origin, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and is the same God or gods worshipped by the Abrahamic religions which comprise of an estimated 4.5 + billion believers.

Any other god that does not reflect the aforementioned attributes in whole or in part is not who we are speaking about.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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29-08-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 06:53 AM)Free Wrote:  ...
The supposed God or gods we are speaking about is of supernatural origin, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and is the same God of gods worshipped by the Abrahamic religions which comprise of an estimated 4.5 + billion believers.

Any other god that does not reflect the aforementioned attributes in whole or in part is not who we are speaking about.

Oh! That god!

I'd forgotten about that one.

Wink

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29-08-2015, 07:15 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 10:20 AM by Free.)
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(28-08-2015 09:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 07:36 PM)Free Wrote:  Are you serious? After all this discussion you don't understand that the absence of the evidence of a positive claim of existence is in fact positive evidence of the absence of existence?

"Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist."

"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of evidence of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence."

—Copi, Introduction to Logic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

And that's how you prove a negative.

Sure, but you have not met the necessary criterion of demonstrating that there exists evidence that must be there. You have to demonstrate it for every conceivable god. The god that many (most?) Christians believe in is provably non-existent as it is defined as omni³ or undetectable but it affects the physical world.

But the deist god that creates the universe from someplace 'outside' the universe and then goes off and forgets about it is not disprovable.

See my previous post in regards to the God/gods we are speaking about.

Quote:
Quote:Get serious, you've implied as such numerous times:


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid719733


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid719742


http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid721817

Each statement above carries the implication that proving a negative- in this case the non existence of "God"- cannot be done.

No, no, no, and no. Facepalm
I am not saying it can't be done; I am saying you haven't done it.

No, Chas. You explicity said that proving non existence cannot be done. You twice made a positive claim that no one can prove non existence, and said nothing about how I personally have not proven it. Here are your words:

Chas Wrote:Since one cannot prove non-existence, ...

Chas Wrote:You cannot make the claim that no gods exist with certainty since it cannot be proved.

It's very clear what you said.

Quote:
Quote:Now, you have said above that you agree that proving a negative is possible. Now, since there are a limited number of ways to demonstrate how to prove a negative, and these exact same methods can be applied to proving the non existence of God with all of them producing a null result, then perhaps you can tell me why you don't think the non existence of God can be proven,

It could be if there were evidence that must be there that isn't.
Demonstrate that, and prove it, and you're home free. Rolleyes

That's illogical. How can there be evidence present if it's negative? The definition of proving a negative is as follows:

"A negative claim is a colloquialism for a claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something. The belief that a "negative" cannot be proved is incorrect; in fact there are a great many impossibility proofs in logic, mathematics, and science (for example, Arrow's impossibility theorem in economics).

When disputed, a proof of impossibility or an "evidence of absence" argument are typical methods to fulfill the burden of proof."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi...a_negative

The very definition is clear, and in respect to this conversation, it related directly to non existence.

Hopefully you noticed the bold type above of what is needed to fulfill the burden of proof, which has been done here ad nausium but still rejected by you.

Quote:
Quote:while maintaining that the non existence of anything else can be proven?

I never made that distinction. Please quote me if you think I did.

You implied it by stating that proving a negative is an actuality, and since proving a negative is a capability in regards to non-existence as per the definition, and since the non existence of a supernatural entity is the topic here, and since you stated that proving non existence cannot be done.

It's clear what you said.

Quote:
Quote:When the exact same methods are applied to other things to demonstrate non existence, why would you say that you agree that we can prove a negative, but on the issue of God you disagree?

I have not once said that. Quote me if you think I did.

Your quotes are all etched in stone, explicitly saying that we cannot prove non existence, with the context being directly relative to the non existence of a god/gods that fit the description in my previous post.

Not sure why you are denying your own words.

Quote:
Quote:Yep, and that evidence is the positive claim of existence by theists. It is the oral evidence of the existence of God. They claim that God exists, and if that claim were to be true, then that evidence should be there.

Right?

Wrong.
That would only disprove the god they are defining - not every conceivable one.

Again, the description of the god/gods is in my previous post. That is the supposed God we are speaking about here. The 7.0 position is directly relative to the God/gods described in my previous post. How has that not been obvious and pre-defined numerous times in this thread?

After all, Richard Dawkins himself goes on a spiel about this very same God- the Abrahamic god- denigrating that God as a bully, sadist, etc, and specifically named it the God from the bible. Since this is the Dawkins scale, it's obvious which God Dawkins is talking about.

And thank you for validating the 7.0 position by saying, "That would only disprove the god they are defining."

It would appear to me that in regards to the Dawkin's scale and the God Dawkins speaks about, you are a 7.0, Chas.

There can be no losers here. If you concede, we both win, and so does anyone else who has found agreement with the conclusion that the Abrahamic god does not exist. These types of discussions are done in an effort to find the truth, and improving our reasoning and logical capabilities along the way.

How can anyone lose when the truth is acknowledged?

So, are we done?

Huh

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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29-08-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 06:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 06:53 AM)Free Wrote:  ...
The supposed God or gods we are speaking about is of supernatural origin, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and is the same God of gods worshipped by the Abrahamic religions which comprise of an estimated 4.5 + billion believers.

Any other god that does not reflect the aforementioned attributes in whole or in part is not who we are speaking about.

Oh! That god!

I'd forgotten about that one.

Wink

Yeah, you know. The one with the big neon sign, the 100 dancing girls, and the constant TV advertsing.

Yep, that one.

Laugh out load

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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29-08-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
Ohjesusgoddamnfuckingchrist. It took the entire morning to get through this thread. I'm never gonna get that time back. It's like being frustrated after sex I never had. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-08-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 09:03 AM)kim Wrote:  Ohjesusgoddamnfuckingchrist. It took the entire morning to get through this thread. I'm never gonna get that time back. It's like being frustrated after sex I never had. Drinking Beverage

Oh really?

And where is the evidence of this sex you never had?

Angel

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29-08-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 09:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 09:03 AM)kim Wrote:  Ohjesusgoddamnfuckingchrist. It took the entire morning to get through this thread. I'm never gonna get that time back. It's like being frustrated after sex I never had. Drinking Beverage

Oh really?

And where is the evidence of this sex you never had?

Angel

Angel I didn't say nuffin.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-08-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 09:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 09:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Oh really?

And where is the evidence of this sex you never had?

Angel

Angel I didn't say nuffin.

Evidently.

Drinking Beverage

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29-08-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 09:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 09:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Oh really?

And where is the evidence of this sex you never had?

Angel

Angel I didn't say nuffin.

I'd like to not watch the sex you didn't have...Blink

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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29-08-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Evidence Of Absence.
(29-08-2015 09:40 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 09:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Angel I didn't say nuffin.

I'd like to not watch the sex you didn't have...Blink

How do we know you haven't?

No one here can deny the possibility of your imaginary dishonesty.

Don't mess with me on this ...I have a BFA in painting, for fuck's sake. Drinking Beverage I haz skoolingz.

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