Evidence for Divinity
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20-07-2016, 12:42 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(19-07-2016 06:05 PM)natachan Wrote:  I have never understood the practicality of plate bikinis.

Cause they aren't practical at all and only purpose of such armor is fan service.

(19-07-2016 06:05 PM)natachan Wrote:  But then again, I never play tanks.

I too prefer to deal damage rather than take it.

(19-07-2016 06:05 PM)natachan Wrote:  Leather and cloth armor, FTW!

Chainmail or plate.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-07-2016, 05:28 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(19-07-2016 07:57 PM)skyking Wrote:  This is the only divinity I have proof of.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/paula...ecipe.html

Now there's a divinity that shapes our ends...
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20-07-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(20-07-2016 05:28 AM)julep Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 07:57 PM)skyking Wrote:  This is the only divinity I have proof of.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/paula...ecipe.html

Now there's a divinity that shapes our ends...

and its byproducts Laugh out load
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20-07-2016, 09:10 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
[Image: divine-gif-233.gif?w=560]

Just Devine...

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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24-07-2016, 01:20 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(19-07-2016 06:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  So the Contemporary Accounts thread has dragged itself out for an excruciating 1140+ posts.

As I noted in that thread, I see the Mythicist position as interesting, but not entirely convincing. I also think that it is somewhat a moot point.

Historicity gives you the following:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem/Palestine area some 2000 years ago.
He was executed for sedition by the Romans.
His followers built a religion around his teachings.

Other than the bible, what evidence is there for DIVINITY?

You can cite evidence that jesus probably existed.

Can you cite evidence for Divinity? That's the important question.

While I don't necessarily have an answer, I want to clarify your question, maybe other theists might be able to answer it better then. What I want to clarify is whether it is possible for you to actually receive an answer that you would consider satisfactory.
The first question is what do you consider as evidence. Obviously if you are expecting scientific evidence then I think you are asking for something impossible since we are dealing with a person who existed 2000 years ago and we do not, at least by what you consider, have any item which was in contact with said person. And even if we did, say that we consider a piece of the true cross to actually have been a piece of the cross upon which Jesus was crucified, what tests might we use to determine if it was in contact with someone who was divine. To divine persons have incredibly high levels of mercury? As such, I presume you are looking for historical source evidence which provides another problem.
You mention that the bible cannot be used as a source, by which I presume you mean the Gospels. Would you consider the non canonical Gospels as evidence? if not what are your criteria. If it is time wise, what do you consider as a reasonable time frame for a source. Jesus' ministry is reported as being only 3 years and then he died. So all sources will most likely be after his death. Now most Gospels were written between 10 (low estimate) and 150 years after his death. The latest canonical Gospel was written 60 years after his death. Also this does not include the time taken to actually write the Gospel, only when they were "published".

If time is not the consideration but instead you want evidence which is not from a Gospel, well you run into a bit of a problem. allow me to present a scenario;
you're walking down the street and you see a long haired guy in sandals and a robe, walking about.
he then calls you over and says he has free wine.
You don't like hipsters but hey "free wine"
So you head over and the guy says "hey buddy, by the way, I'm God, here drink some wine, I made it myself".
You would say "bullshit! prove it you dirty hippy"
He goes "alright" and a pillar of fire comes down from the sky and consumes a tree ten feet away from you.
you have 2 options 1) you remain skeptical of his divinity (in which case I commend your perseverance in your skepticism, however wrong it may be)
2) you go "holy shit! you are God, I gotta tell people about this.
No here we come to the problem. If you are in a position to report on the divinity of Christ, you basically automatically become an evangelist (gospel writer/speaker). If you see a guy who claims to be God doing magical things, you would probably believe he is God. So any first hand evidence of Jesus doing miracles, would probably be reported by believers (if we presume Jesus is in fact God).
Now if we look at secondary writers, they will either be sympathetic towards the believers or not. If they are, they would use the believers as sources and since we have presumably rejected the testimony of believers, we cannot use these sources. If they secondary is not sympathetic he would most likely reject the believers claims as mere fantasy and again we must reject these sources.
As an aside, we must also remember that Christians were often persecuted or seen as being against the Roman empire, as such most Roman sources would probably consider the Christians beliefs to be mere fantasy otherwise they would have to accept that they were correct.
I am not saying one way or the other whether Jesus was divine. I merely want to clarify your goal posts.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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24-07-2016, 06:49 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
The problem is that people ask for evidence of something that is defined as non-existant.

Something that doesn't exist is...
Invisible
Immaterial
Makes no sound
Doesn't exist in the natural world

Divinity or god
Invisible
Immaterial
Makes no sound
Doesn't exist in the natural world

You will never be able to have evidence for things that doesn't exist.

Language allows us to say things that are untrue and impossible.

"I am my own great great grandfather."
"The entire universe was created today for the first time when I opened my eyes."
"Something exists outside of the realm of existence."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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24-07-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(24-07-2016 06:49 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  The problem is that people ask for evidence of something that is defined as non-existant.

Something that doesn't exist is...
Invisible
Immaterial
Makes no sound
Doesn't exist in the natural world

Divinity or god
Invisible
Immaterial
Makes no sound
Doesn't exist in the natural world

You will never be able to have evidence for things that doesn't exist.

Language allows us to say things that are untrue and impossible.

"I am my own great great grandfather."
"The entire universe was created today for the first time when I opened my eyes."
"Something exists outside of the realm of existence."

You're right... but inevitably I am reminded of this classic song:

I'm My Own Grandpa
Willie Nelson
Now, many many years ago
When I was twenty three
I was married to a widow
Who was pretty as could be
This widow had a grown-up daughter
Had hair of red
My father fell in love with her
And soon the two were wed
This made my dad my son-in-law
And changed my very life
My daughter was my mother
'Cause she was my father's wife
To complicate the matters
Even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father
Of a bouncing baby boy
My little baby then became
A brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle
Though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle
That also made him the brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter
Who, of course, was my step-mother
I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own grandpa
It sounds funny I know
But it really is so
I'm my own grandpa...

Big Grin
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24-07-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  While I don't necessarily have an answer, I want to clarify your question, maybe other theists might be able to answer it better then.

So I take it you are a theist?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  What I want to clarify is whether it is possible for you to actually receive an answer that you would consider satisfactory.

Okay. I want to note that the wording of this raises flags. Yes, you are asking for clarification, but you're implying that I might not accept any answers.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The first question is what do you consider as evidence.

This is a good definition of evidence:
Wikipedia: Evidence

My question was partly intended to make a theist think about what evidence is and what evidence they have to support their position.

The type of evidence and amount of evidence required to support a claim are directly proportional to the nature of the claim itself.

The claim: "I have a pet dog" requires little evidence.
The claim: "I have a pet dragon" requires much more.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Obviously if you are expecting scientific evidence then I think you are asking for something impossible...

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

Scientific evidence of what?

Miracles? According to the bible itself, other religions produced miracles. So jesus's miracles are not evidence of divinity.

Evidence of a virgin birth?
Evidence of death and or resurrection?
Evidence of ascension into heaven?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  ...since we are dealing with a person who existed 2000 years ago and we do not, at least by what you consider, have any item which was in contact with said person.

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  And even if we did, say that we consider a piece of the true cross to actually have been a piece of the cross upon which Jesus was crucified, what tests might we use to determine if it was in contact with someone who was divine.

Unexplainable DNA?

Oh, and according to believers, there are multiple fragments of the True Cross ™. Enough that if you glued them together, there are so many that you could build an ark. In other words, they're fakes.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  To divine persons have incredibly high levels of mercury? As such, I presume you are looking for historical source evidence which provides another problem.

Yeah, no one has provided any. That's part of my point. Ask a cleric for evidence of divinity and they'll show you faith.

Other than faith what evidence do you have?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  You mention that the bible cannot be used as a source, by which I presume you mean the Gospels.

Actually, I mean both NT and OT. The OT was used to justify the NT. The gospels are not historical texts. They are sales pitches.

What about the apocryphal gospels? They are even more contradictory than the ones we have.

Do you understand what orthodoxy is? How orthodoxy was decided? How the gospels were determined to be true?

Different christian sects slaughtered each other over doctrinal differences. Orthodoxy, the "correct" belief was decided at sword point. The canonical gospels were decided by popular vote.

If the gospels are evidence then in 2000 years people will be worshiping superheroes. The stories are more consistent and better written, they do miracles and good deeds and there is just as much evidence for their existence.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If time is not the consideration but instead you want evidence which is not from a Gospel, well you run into a bit of a problem. allow me to present a scenario;

Wow. You've never seen prank TV shows? Scams? Con Artists?
Someone says "I'm god", does a magic trick and you fall to your knees?

That's how religions got started in the first place.

Maybe it's time we ask "How did you do that?" instead of "What is thy bidding my master?"

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  No here we come to the problem. If you are in a position to report on the divinity of Christ, you basically automatically become an evangelist (gospel writer/speaker).

No. You automatically become an eyewitness. Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable evidence. Your personal experience means nothing to me.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If you see a guy who claims to be God doing magical things, you would probably believe he is God.

And you would be gullible. I would be skeptical.

If a person says "I'm god" and does a magic trick, I'm going to say "Nice trick. Do it again."
"Now do it on video."
"Okay, do it for all these people."
Are other people experiencing the same thing?
"Okay, let's do this in a lab, where the scientists can verify it."

Is this magic trick verifiable, testable and repeatable?
Why not?

"Oh, and if you are god then WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WASTING TIME DOING MAGIC TRICKS??? BABIES ARE DYING OF CANCER WHILE YOU'RE FUCKING AROUND BURNING BUSHES!!! GET OFF YOUR FUCKING ASS AND STOP THAT TSUNAMI FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU???"

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about all of this.

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24-07-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  While I don't necessarily have an answer, I want to clarify your question, maybe other theists might be able to answer it better then.

So I take it you are a theist?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  What I want to clarify is whether it is possible for you to actually receive an answer that you would consider satisfactory.

Okay. I want to note that the wording of this raises flags. Yes, you are asking for clarification, but you're implying that I might not accept any answers.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The first question is what do you consider as evidence.

This is a good definition of evidence:
Wikipedia: Evidence

My question was partly intended to make a theist think about what evidence is and what evidence they have to support their position.

The type of evidence and amount of evidence required to support a claim are directly proportional to the nature of the claim itself.

The claim: "I have a pet dog" requires little evidence.
The claim: "I have a pet dragon" requires much more.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Obviously if you are expecting scientific evidence then I think you are asking for something impossible...

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

Scientific evidence of what?

Miracles? According to the bible itself, other religions produced miracles. So jesus's miracles are not evidence of divinity.

Evidence of a virgin birth?
Evidence of death and or resurrection?
Evidence of ascension into heaven?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  ...since we are dealing with a person who existed 2000 years ago and we do not, at least by what you consider, have any item which was in contact with said person.

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  And even if we did, say that we consider a piece of the true cross to actually have been a piece of the cross upon which Jesus was crucified, what tests might we use to determine if it was in contact with someone who was divine.

Unexplainable DNA?

Oh, and according to believers, there are multiple fragments of the True Cross ™. Enough that if you glued them together, there are so many that you could build an ark. In other words, they're fakes.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  To divine persons have incredibly high levels of mercury? As such, I presume you are looking for historical source evidence which provides another problem.

Yeah, no one has provided any. That's part of my point. Ask a cleric for evidence of divinity and they'll show you faith.

Other than faith what evidence do you have?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  You mention that the bible cannot be used as a source, by which I presume you mean the Gospels.

Actually, I mean both NT and OT. The OT was used to justify the NT. The gospels are not historical texts. They are sales pitches.

What about the apocryphal gospels? They are even more contradictory than the ones we have.

Do you understand what orthodoxy is? How orthodoxy was decided? How the gospels were determined to be true?

Different christian sects slaughtered each other over doctrinal differences. Orthodoxy, the "correct" belief was decided at sword point. The canonical gospels were decided by popular vote.

If the gospels are evidence then in 2000 years people will be worshiping superheroes. The stories are more consistent and better written, they do miracles and good deeds and there is just as much evidence for their existence.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If time is not the consideration but instead you want evidence which is not from a Gospel, well you run into a bit of a problem. allow me to present a scenario;

Wow. You've never seen prank TV shows? Scams? Con Artists?
Someone says "I'm god", does a magic trick and you fall to your knees?

That's how religions got started in the first place.

Maybe it's time we ask "How did you do that?" instead of "What is thy bidding my master?"

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  No here we come to the problem. If you are in a position to report on the divinity of Christ, you basically automatically become an evangelist (gospel writer/speaker).

No. You automatically become an eyewitness. Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable evidence. Your personal experience means nothing to me.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If you see a guy who claims to be God doing magical things, you would probably believe he is God.

And you would be gullible. I would be skeptical.

If a person says "I'm god" and does a magic trick, I'm going to say "Nice trick. Do it again."
"Now do it on video."
"Okay, do it for all these people."
Are other people experiencing the same thing?
"Okay, let's do this in a lab, where the scientists can verify it."

Is this magic trick verifiable, testable and repeatable?
Why not?

"Oh, and if you are god then WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WASTING TIME DOING MAGIC TRICKS??? BABIES ARE DYING OF CANCER WHILE YOU'RE FUCKING AROUND BURNING BUSHES!!! GET OFF YOUR FUCKING ASS AND STOP THAT TSUNAMI FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU???"

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about all of this.

Robot chicken showed how Jesus could prove his resurrection:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-07-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
Quote:Historicity gives you the following:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem/Palestine area some 2000 years ago.
He was executed for sedition by the Romans.
His followers built a religion around his teachings.


Only if you are being charitable. The "evidence" for those claims is the same as the claims for divinity. The fucking gospels.

As far as how the religion was built, there is a book called "The Jesus Wars" by J. P. Jenkins. You should read it and find out how power-crazed bishops used threats and outright violence to create the shitpile that emerged as xtianity.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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