Evidence for Divinity
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26-07-2016, 02:57 PM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(24-07-2016 09:22 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Historicity gives you the following:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem/Palestine area some 2000 years ago.
He was executed for sedition by the Romans.
His followers built a religion around his teachings.


Only if you are being charitable. The "evidence" for those claims is the same as the claims for divinity. The fucking gospels.

As far as how the religion was built, there is a book called "The Jesus Wars" by J. P. Jenkins. You should read it and find out how power-crazed bishops used threats and outright violence to create the shitpile that emerged as xtianity.

It is not credible to state that a man named Jesus did not exist and was not executed by the Romans/Jewish leaders. It it was all a myth, it would have been too easily debunked in the early years of Christianity. The Romans and Jewish elders would have been motivated to debunk the myth and get those Christians back into the Jewish temple where they could be controlled and fleeced. You won't find a credible historian that doubts Jesus was a historical figure.

His divinity is obviously a different question.
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26-07-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(26-07-2016 02:57 PM)u196533 Wrote:  It it was all a myth, it would have been too easily debunked in the early years of Christianity.

Disproving things was not as easy as it is today. Access to learning was for those that could afford it. Books were very hard to come by and even if they were have the ability to read them was another luxury.

(26-07-2016 02:57 PM)u196533 Wrote:  The Romans and Jewish elders would have been motivated to debunk the myth and get those Christians back into the Jewish temple where they could be controlled and fleeced.

You should do some historical reading on the events that occurred before and around the rain of Constantine the Great. Everything you just described did occur. Killing Christians was a fun past time of the Romans. If fact they even coined a fun little word for these people that denied their gods (Jupiter, Neptune, Saturn etc.) exsistance Atheists. Jewish leaders still denies Jesus as being a messiah.

(26-07-2016 02:57 PM)u196533 Wrote:  You won't find a credible historian that doubts Jesus was a historical figure.

David Fitzgerald, Christian Heinrich Arthur Drews, Peter Gandy, George Albert Wells, Rober M. Price, Earl Doherty would you like more?

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26-07-2016, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2016 03:55 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Evidence for Divinity
Quote:To my childish eyes and to those of all my friends, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were perfect beings, untarnished by any base human function. I was convinced, as we all were, that neither of them urinated or defecated. Who could imagine such things of gods?

Kang Chol-hwan

Quote:“I had to be careful of my thoughts because I believed Kim Jong-il could read my mind. Every couple of days someone would disappear. A classmate's mother was punished in a public execution that I was made to attend. I had no choice – there were spies in the neighbourhood.”

“My mother took longer than me.(To get over the brainwashing) When Kim Jong-il died she couldn't believe it. We were in South Korea by then and she said, ‘He can't die because he's not a human, he's a god!’ It was very hard for us to comprehend that he was just a human, but I helped my mother see the truth.

Yeonmi Park

I'm tring to find the North koren's news that said Kim jong-un is the reason the sun revolves around the earth, and the first rainbow appeared when his grand father walked the earth.

But my point is he's are people being thought as gods in modern times. People around them have no choice to think other wise and the information that is available to them is extremely limited, and regulated. So it's only "reasonable" for them to think that these are true. Even thou in reality, they are not.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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26-07-2016, 10:55 PM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  While I don't necessarily have an answer, I want to clarify your question, maybe other theists might be able to answer it better then.

So I take it you are a theist?

That would be a correct statement, although for the purpose of this thread, at least for now, I am remaining agnostic and making no claims upon the divinity of Jesus Christ.

(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  What I want to clarify is whether it is possible for you to actually receive an answer that you would consider satisfactory.

Okay. I want to note that the wording of this raises flags. Yes, you are asking for clarification, but you're implying that I might not accept any answers.

I'm sorry, that is what I implied, mea culpa. Of course if I didn't think it I would not have brought it up. Sorry, I have seen many threads such as this where no answer is acceptable. Of course there is also the fact that I find many threads on this site go on much longer than they need to simply because the question and its parameters and goal were not well defined. I am really big on clear definitions.

(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The first question is what do you consider as evidence.

This is a good definition of evidence:
Wikipedia: Evidence

My question was partly intended to make a theist think about what evidence is and what evidence they have to support their position.

The type of evidence and amount of evidence required to support a claim are directly proportional to the nature of the claim itself.

The claim: "I have a pet dog" requires little evidence.
The claim: "I have a pet dragon" requires much more.

Well this is mainly the crux of my objection. The word evidence and the claim that it must be proportional. directly quoting from the source you provided; "Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion".
When you ask for evidence of something, there is no parameters set at that point. Jesus appearing on grilled cheese is evidence for the divinity (or miraclinity) of Jesus. However, neither of us would consider this as being worthy of bringing into this debate.
The real question that you are asking is what evidence is there that is either sufficient or satisfactory and reliable.
I use the word sufficient here to mean evidence which is sufficient to cause a change in position. As in evidence which would cause you to become a theist. Satisfactory evidence I am defining as evidence which supports Jesus' divinity to a degree in which it could be considered reasonable to hold such a position even if it does not change your mind.
Reliability I think is rather self explanatory.
So here is the question for you. Are you looking for either sufficient or satisfactory evidence, and what qualities must a piece of evidence have to cross that threshold.

Similarly, what is your threshold for reliability.

(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Obviously if you are expecting scientific evidence then I think you are asking for something impossible...

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

Scientific evidence of what?

Miracles? According to the bible itself, other religions produced miracles. So jesus's miracles are not evidence of divinity.

Evidence of a virgin birth?
Evidence of death and or resurrection?
Evidence of ascension into heaven?

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  ...since we are dealing with a person who existed 2000 years ago and we do not, at least by what you consider, have any item which was in contact with said person.

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about that.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  And even if we did, say that we consider a piece of the true cross to actually have been a piece of the cross upon which Jesus was crucified, what tests might we use to determine if it was in contact with someone who was divine.

Unexplainable DNA?

Oh, and according to believers, there are multiple fragments of the True Cross ™. Enough that if you glued them together, there are so many that you could build an ark. In other words, they're fakes.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  To divine persons have incredibly high levels of mercury? As such, I presume you are looking for historical source evidence which provides another problem.

Yeah, no one has provided any. That's part of my point. Ask a cleric for evidence of divinity and they'll show you faith.

Other than faith what evidence do you have?

Currently, I am providing no evidence as I am neither claiming nor denying Jesus' divinity. I also did not claim the pieces of the True Cross ™ were legitimate. I was making a hypothetical reductio ad absurdam to demonstrate the difficulty of using science applied to Jesus, in how he was 2000 years ago, to determine his divinity. In a similar way, we could not use science to determine if Julius Caesar was a white man. We do not have remnants of his skin in which we could analyze to determine his melanin level.
Also, I was bringing up the question of what scientific tests exist that can determine that Jesus was in fact divine.

(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  You mention that the bible cannot be used as a source, by which I presume you mean the Gospels.

Actually, I mean both NT and OT. The OT was used to justify the NT. The gospels are not historical texts. They are sales pitches.

What about the apocryphal gospels? They are even more contradictory than the ones we have.

Do you understand what orthodoxy is? How orthodoxy was decided? How the gospels were determined to be true?

Different christian sects slaughtered each other over doctrinal differences. Orthodoxy, the "correct" belief was decided at sword point. The canonical gospels were decided by popular vote.

If the gospels are evidence then in 2000 years people will be worshiping superheroes. The stories are more consistent and better written, they do miracles and good deeds and there is just as much evidence for their existence.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If time is not the consideration but instead you want evidence which is not from a Gospel, well you run into a bit of a problem. allow me to present a scenario;

Wow. You've never seen prank TV shows? Scams? Con Artists?
Someone says "I'm god", does a magic trick and you fall to your knees?

That's how religions got started in the first place.

Maybe it's time we ask "How did you do that?" instead of "What is thy bidding my master?"

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  No here we come to the problem. If you are in a position to report on the divinity of Christ, you basically automatically become an evangelist (gospel writer/speaker).

No. You automatically become an eyewitness. Eyewitness testimony is the least reliable evidence. Your personal experience means nothing to me.

(24-07-2016 01:20 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If you see a guy who claims to be God doing magical things, you would probably believe he is God.

And you would be gullible. I would be skeptical.

If a person says "I'm god" and does a magic trick, I'm going to say "Nice trick. Do it again."
"Now do it on video."
"Okay, do it for all these people."
Are other people experiencing the same thing?
"Okay, let's do this in a lab, where the scientists can verify it."

Is this magic trick verifiable, testable and repeatable?
Why not?

"Oh, and if you are god then WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WASTING TIME DOING MAGIC TRICKS??? BABIES ARE DYING OF CANCER WHILE YOU'RE FUCKING AROUND BURNING BUSHES!!! GET OFF YOUR FUCKING ASS AND STOP THAT TSUNAMI FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU???"

I was only trying to use a humorous story to prove a point. (yes I have seen prank shows, I love them. I was trying to come up with an example which could not have been done my smoke and mirrors, but apparently I failed, or at least my imagination made the event grander than yours did Tongue)
The point was this question. Would you accept any contemporary or near contemporary source, whether they actually exist or not, as being reliable enough to be used as evidence for the purpose of this debate? and if yes, what qualifications would this source need for you to accept it?


(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity should have thought about all of this.

I just wanted to mention that in this statement, you have changed the goal posts, although I probably have to forgive this one. While most Christians hold these to be true, I'm pretty sure over my time on this forum, I have seen a theist deny each one of those statements.

Also, I wanted to clarify, are we considering divinity=miraclinity, as in the ability to work miracles? So is a possible conclusion to this thread that Jesus was able to work miracles and break space/time and yet still not be God?

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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27-07-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I'm sorry, that is what I implied, mea culpa. Of course if I didn't think it I would not have brought it up. Sorry, I have seen many threads such as this where no answer is acceptable. Of course there is also the fact that I find many threads on this site go on much longer than they need to simply because the question and its parameters and goal were not well defined. I am really big on clear definitions.

To clarify this statement:

(24-07-2016 07:16 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  My question was partly intended to make a theist think about what evidence is and what evidence they have to support their position.

My point is not what I would consider evidence. I want to know what theists consider as their evidence.

Some threads drag on. Some posters like debating the little details. If a thread goes longer than you want, stop posting in it. Make your case, defend it as long as you are willing, then let it stand.

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Well this is mainly the crux of my objection. The word evidence and the claim that it must be proportional. directly quoting from the source you provided; "Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion".

Yes. Evidence can fall into a variety of categories.
What type of evidence do believers have?
Why do they consider it evidence?
Why do others reject it?

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  When you ask for evidence of something, there is no parameters set at that point. Jesus appearing on grilled cheese is evidence for the divinity (or miraclinity) of Jesus. However, neither of us would consider this as being worthy of bringing into this debate.

Actually, I would consider absurd miracle claims relevant. If a believer tells me that they consider Jesus Toast ™ to be a valid miracle and evidence of god, that tells me a great deal about their mindset.

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  The real question that you are asking is what evidence is there that is either sufficient or satisfactory and reliable.

No. I am asking what theists consider to be the evidence for the divinity of jesus. I am granting that there was an historical jesus. I want to know why theists think he was divine.

In regards to your definitions: The Wikipedia definition I cited gave a variety of different types of evidence. Different types of evidence are judged in different ways. If evidence is presented then we can determine the best way to consider it and we can all judge it accordingly. This is not a one on one debate. Everyone here is going to have their own take on what is acceptable and what is not. If someone posts evidence, it's going to be dissected, examined and scrutinized.

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Currently, I am providing no evidence as I am neither claiming nor denying Jesus' divinity.

Please do so.

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  In a similar way, we could not use science to determine if Julius Caesar was a white man.

True. However no one is killing anyone over Caesar's skin color.

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Would you accept any contemporary or near contemporary source, whether they actually exist or not, as being reliable enough to be used as evidence for the purpose of this debate? and if yes, what qualifications would this source need for you to accept it?

If you have evidence to discuss...

(26-07-2016 10:55 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Also, I wanted to clarify, are we considering divinity=miraclinity, as in the ability to work miracles? So is a possible conclusion to this thread that Jesus was able to work miracles and break space/time and yet still not be God?

According to the bible, well part of it anyway, miracles were not a sign of divinity.

I've always understood divinity to be "of divine origin", holy, a god, etc.


If you have evidence, if you have a case to make, then do so.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-07-2016, 06:49 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(19-07-2016 06:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  So the Contemporary Accounts thread has dragged itself out for an excruciating 1140+ posts.

As I noted in that thread, I see the Mythicist position as interesting, but not entirely convincing. I also think that it is somewhat a moot point.

Historicity gives you the following:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem/Palestine area some 2000 years ago.
He was executed for sedition by the Romans.
His followers built a religion around his teachings.

Other than the bible, what evidence is there for DIVINITY?

You can cite evidence that jesus probably existed.

Can you cite evidence for Divinity? That's the important question.

What would evidence for divinity even look like? As opposed to evidence for some yet to be explained natural process?

Before the question could even be asked, wouldn't we all have to have some agreed upon definition of the term here? What if we can't agree on the meaning of the term, then wouldn't the question be moot.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 06:57 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(27-07-2016 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 06:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  So the Contemporary Accounts thread has dragged itself out for an excruciating 1140+ posts.

As I noted in that thread, I see the Mythicist position as interesting, but not entirely convincing. I also think that it is somewhat a moot point.

Historicity gives you the following:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher in Jerusalem/Palestine area some 2000 years ago.
He was executed for sedition by the Romans.
His followers built a religion around his teachings.

Other than the bible, what evidence is there for DIVINITY?

You can cite evidence that jesus probably existed.

Can you cite evidence for Divinity? That's the important question.

What would evidence for divinity even look like? As opposed to evidence for some yet to be explained natural process?

Before the question could even be asked, wouldn't we all have to have some agreed upon definition of the term here? What if we can't agree on the meaning of the term, then wouldn't the question be moot.

From another thread yesterday:

(24-07-2016 07:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 07:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  [Image: d7ce22e68cac5a1ed3ca57b507a1906e.jpg]

50' tall burning letters in the sky visible all over the earth (to the naked eye) with the message "Hi, this is God I'm sorry I fucked this planet up be right around to fix africa and other things. PS Do Not Vote for Trump. "

Should be easy enough for any all powerful creator.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-07-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(27-07-2016 06:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 07:18 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  50' tall burning letters in the sky visible all over the earth (to the naked eye) with the message "Hi, this is God I'm sorry I fucked this planet up be right around to fix africa and other things. PS Do Not Vote for Trump. "

Should be easy enough for any all powerful creator.

If something like that ever happened, I'd assume it was an elaborate prank. Trump supporters definitely wouldn't believe it. I doubt most of us here would really believe it came from God. That it was just a complex, difficult to explain parlor trick.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
Ever notice how the number of miracles and the extravagance of the miracles have declined as our abilities in science have increased?

Moses parted the Red Sea.

We have Jesus Toast.

Consider

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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27-07-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: Evidence for Divinity
(19-07-2016 08:48 PM)The_Bamboozler Wrote:  
(19-07-2016 05:41 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  But there are just as many or more Muslims who swear that God didn't have a son, so take a vote???? Or what?????????

I fear you've missed rahn127's joke.

Not really just trying to continue in the same vein.
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