Evidence for the existence of God
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11-01-2017, 05:06 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 05:01 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I'm hearing a lot of argument but no evidence. The existence of the universe does not let me examine, poke or prod god.

Evidence Fail

Evidence, not argument.

It's magical evidence. It's so magical it's wearing an invisibility cloak. Hobo
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11-01-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

What was the cause of the god/wizard/inter-dimensional mad scientist who supposedly created us? Did they always exist? Are they still alive? Was our universe a purposeful creation or an accident? What empirical evidence do you have to support your God claim?

You also don't know that the universe had a beginning of existence, it may have always existed but in a different form.

(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

Humans have a very hard time with randomizing and our brains crave order so yeah "obviously" to you it seems our universe is so complex and amazing an intelligence was behind it it all but actually our universe is very chaotic and even though nature has done a great job of evolving life on our planet it took a very very long time for that to happen.

If you dropped milk on the ground and just waited eventually it will start to mold and grow organisms on it, give it even more time and even more "life" will sprout from it and it won't be pretty but that was pretty random and accidental right? You weren't trying to create life, it just sorta happened when this liquid interacted with the air and the ground...and well you see our universe is made up of many gases and elements like hydrogen and oxygen and when they interact really neat stuff happens. Our universe is around 14 billion years old and it's already created many planets and stars and even life on this planet and it's just as reasonable to accept it was random chance that led us to this place, no intelligent creator needed, just nature and time.

(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

It's not a separate question, you just now stated that a specific God created our universe, not just any God or wizard or genie or whatever, how do you know it was this one God? Why did he create the universe? Why did he create so much stuff we will never see and then care so much about using his immense powers to create entire galaxies and planets and gigantic stars but then also feels pre-occupied worrying about humans and their thoughts and feelings?

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11-01-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you know a first cause is required for the universe to exist?

How do you go from "first cause" to "intelligent supernatural being that listens to prayers and inspired humans to write the bible?"

Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

You don't know the universe had a beginning - unless you're claiming to have been there at the time........

And it's funny -- you think that anything that exists, had a beginning ---- but you're perfectly comfortable not knowing where your purported "creator" came from.......

In other words - you question the validity of that which you can see, test, quantify and verify ----- but you fully accept that which you can't see, measure or prove.....

In other words -- you're an ass-backwards idiot....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-01-2017, 05:10 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause.

Please demonstrate that. What can you show that has a "beginning of its existence" that isn't a rearrangement of previously existing matter or energy? The only thing I know of that might fit into that category is at the subatomic or quantum levels and, as far as we know, those events are uncaused. Your first premise appears to me to be wrong.

Quote:The universe has a beginning of its existence,

Please define what you mean by universe and then how you know it had a beginning? The "big bang" model takes our observable universe back to a point in time but does not claim that it came into being at that moment, just that the expansion we see today started then. Your second premise appears to me to be unsubstantiated.

Quote:therefore the universe has a cause.

Since I reject both premises as unproven the conclusion is unwarranted.

Quote:It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

Your lack of knowledge and/or imagination is not evidence. What you have there is either an argument from ignorance or an argument from incredulity depending on exactly how you mean it. Either is a fallacy.

Quote:As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

Since there's no reason yet to suppose a creator it doesn't seem worth the trouble.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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11-01-2017, 05:23 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

You're making an enormous leap of faith when you attribute that cause to a fictional character so irredeemably stupid and incompetent that its master plan fell all to crap in Genesis 3 because of a Talking Snake™. No. The god of the Bible is disqualified. It's a primitive character invented by ignorant people, and the thought of it crafting even a single top quark is absurd.

If there is indeed a "first cause" rather than matter/energy just popping in and out of existence due to quantum effects, I believe that the first cause had to be simple and insentient -- in other words, not a god, god-like being or other sentient entity, because they would need an even more substantial cause to account for their existence, sentience and power.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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11-01-2017, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 06:19 PM by Cheerful Charlie.)
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you know a first cause is required for the universe to exist?

How do you go from "first cause" to "intelligent supernatural being that listens to prayers and inspired humans to write the bible?"

Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

The multi-Universe seems to be infinite in size and time. There is no beginning or end. This theory is extrapolated from known, trustworthy observable facts. The universe we live in, this pocket Universe is simply a local phenomena, part of an eternal chain of cause and effect. It may seem obvious to you, but then you are simply wrong.

God as creator is not scientific. It's metaphysical.

Science arose from the concept of secondary causes. God does not cause all to happen by an unending string of miracles. Duns Scotus, William of Okham and others. Science then, natural philosophy is the study of secondary causes. Science can eject God and the most orthodox Catholic Chemist or astronomer does science in exactly the same way as the most atheistic chemist or astronomyer.

We can see the natural Universe and study it. We cannot observe God or supernatural things so there is no evidence there, just assertions. God has no evidential standing. Not in a scientific sense. Not in a metaphysical sense.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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11-01-2017, 05:41 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:24 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  How do you know a first cause is required for the universe to exist?

How do you go from "first cause" to "intelligent supernatural being that listens to prayers and inspired humans to write the bible?"

Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

In Acts 4, God via the holy ghost commands Christian be communists. Are you a communist? Do you follow God's commands?

Can you work the miracles the Bible promises?

Mark 11:22-24
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and
shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those
things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have
whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when
ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

John 14
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or
else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these
shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that
the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.


Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name
shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly
thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick,
and they shall recover.

James 5:13-15
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let
him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the
church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in
the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord
shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be
forgiven him.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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11-01-2017, 05:43 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:45 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  It falls to a variety of objections including:

- Why would you expect the universe to have a cause? Causality is a feature of the universe so "prior" to the universe there were no causes to be had. It's a bit like asking when time began.

- Why should this "first cause" not be a natural phenomenon? Get back to me when you've read up on Brane Cosmology.

- Why should this "first cause" be your particular deity? Rather than Zeus, Odin or Cthulu?

- What caused your god? Claiming that your deity is "uncaused" violates the underlying principle that "everything needs a cause" and is referred to as the fallacy of Special Pleading (e.g.: "Please, please let me change the rules so my argument makes sense.").

There. Now that we've done that, again, can we move along? Drinking Beverage

Why would I expect the universe to have a cause?

Why do you expect that your computer had a cause?

If something comes into existence, then there must be something else able to bring it into existence (obviously). Nothing comes from nothing.

Why should this "first cause" not be a natural phenomenon? Because a "natural phenomenon" is not capable of creating anything, let alone our infinitely finely-tuned complex universe. What 'natural phenomenon" do you know of that would be capable of creating our universe?

"Why should this "first cause" be your particular deity? Rather than Zeus, Odin or Cthulu?"

Zeus, Odin and Cthulu are false gods. There is no evidence that they exist. Trying to reason that the true God doesn't exist because there are false gods is a nonsensical argument.

"What caused your god? Claiming that your deity is "uncaused" violates the underlying principle that "everything needs a cause"

Well, that is not my principle. My position is that everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause, that the universe has a beginning of its existence, and that the universe therefore has a cause of its existence.

So no, the logic of a First Cause does not "fall", at all.

It is beyond absurd to claim that anything, let alone the entire universe, does not require a cause.
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11-01-2017, 05:53 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 05:43 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  It is beyond absurd to claim that anything, let alone the entire universe, does not require a cause.

And yet you make exactly that claim for your God.

Consider
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11-01-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 05:43 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:45 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  It falls to a variety of objections including:

- Why would you expect the universe to have a cause? Causality is a feature of the universe so "prior" to the universe there were no causes to be had. It's a bit like asking when time began.

- Why should this "first cause" not be a natural phenomenon? Get back to me when you've read up on Brane Cosmology.

- Why should this "first cause" be your particular deity? Rather than Zeus, Odin or Cthulu?

- What caused your god? Claiming that your deity is "uncaused" violates the underlying principle that "everything needs a cause" and is referred to as the fallacy of Special Pleading (e.g.: "Please, please let me change the rules so my argument makes sense.").

There. Now that we've done that, again, can we move along? Drinking Beverage

Why would I expect the universe to have a cause?

Why do you expect that your computer had a cause?

If something comes into existence, then there must be something else able to bring it into existence (obviously). Nothing comes from nothing.

Why should this "first cause" not be a natural phenomenon? Because a "natural phenomenon" is not capable of creating anything, let alone our infinitely finely-tuned complex universe. What 'natural phenomenon" do you know of that would be capable of creating our universe?

"Why should this "first cause" be your particular deity? Rather than Zeus, Odin or Cthulu?"

Zeus, Odin and Cthulu are false gods. There is no evidence that they exist. Trying to reason that the true God doesn't exist because there are false gods is a nonsensical argument.

"What caused your god? Claiming that your deity is "uncaused" violates the underlying principle that "everything needs a cause"

Well, that is not my principle. My position is that everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause, that the universe has a beginning of its existence, and that the universe therefore has a cause of its existence.

So no, the logic of a First Cause does not "fall", at all.

It is beyond absurd to claim that anything, let alone the entire universe, does not require a cause.

I'll get to these separately in a moment. Until then, let me simply lump them together under the objection that these are arguments, not evidence. You mentioned evidence at some point and I'm still waiting for it.

By its very definition, your supposed First Cause is "external" to the universe. It is unobservable in any way whatsoever. It is the very essence of what is not evidence.

Evidence SVP

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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