Evidence for the existence of God
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11-01-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 04:50 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:48 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause. The universe has a beginning of its existence, therefore the universe has a cause.

It is obvious to me that our infinitely complex universe could not be created by anyone other than a highly intelligent being.

As for why I believe that Creator is the God of the Bible who listens to prayers etc. is a separate question in itself that I will gladly answer in another thread.

How are you defining "obvious" Wink

Irrefutably self-evident.

Of course, it is impossible to reason with one who does not accept or even understand that which is obvious.

For instance, those who question whether we really exist or are living in a dream, people who insist on arguing that the entire universe came into existence from nothing etc. are a waste of my time.
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11-01-2017, 07:37 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 07:45 PM by SitaSky.)
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 07:06 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  The problem is, we were given this planet to live on but have made a terrible mess of it. The planet is being ruined, violence and immoral behavior are rampant, society is more depraved than ever. We are living in what the Bible describes as "critical times". I believe that God will soon step in and sort out these issues and restore the earth.

Oh boy here we go, God's coming y'all! Hide yo kids! Hide yo wife!

Ok first of all these are not "critical times", our planet has experienced much worse, open up a history book, not the bible, an ACTUAL history book and read about the Black Plague, the Dark Ages, the Spanish Inquisition, The rise and fall of empires, that time we thought rocks could be pets, etc.

We are living in a time where education is readily available but sadly dismissed (You have clearly never studied evolution even though you claim to understand it and the information on it is very easy to find), the human lifespan is longer, certain disease have either been cured or the methods for treating them have vastly improved, babies are more likely to live past infancy (Yay science!), we can travel to distant lands and we can communicate with people from all over without having to leave our homes (yay science again!). It's another issue if those people are worth talking to of course.

Also all these improvements to our lives and the planet have come at a cost but guess what? There will always be war, needless death and sad stuff that doesn't mean the world is about to end, it's just the nature of our reality. It's chaotic and it's all slowly coming apart because of entropy, go look that word up.

Now let's accept your premise and break it up into little pieces because it's fun:
(11-01-2017 07:06 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Yes, the universe is a very big place - God intends for righteous humans to live forever.

Apparently he also intends for unrighteous humans to live forever, they'll just be tortured because he's so damn loving! You guys! He loves you so much!! Also what is so great about living forever and what does that have to do with the universe being big?

Why did this God give us a planet that was so perfect and amazing but then we fucked it all up because he made a tree with special fruit...and yeah you know the dumb story so did we fuck it up or did he fuck it up? Because I'm pretty sure he made that tree, made humans stupidly easy to tempt, and also made a snake that could tempt them...because he made everything right?

(11-01-2017 07:06 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Then, in the future, when the earth is restored and pseudoscientific theories such as Evolution have been wiped out, we can move forward and start working on the technology necessary to explore our vast universe.

Only science will give us the tools to explore our universe, not any Gods or spirit beings. If God wanted us to explore the universe he would've included the plans for space faring ships in the Bible but he didn't, he did give us detailed instructions on who to kill like witches and unruly kids, how to build big wooden boats, even how to sell your daughter into slavery, not very useful information at all but what do you expect from Bronze age goat farmers?

Evolution is actual science and it's taught in biology classes and it's the best theory we have based on facts that explain our origins. Creationism is based on an old myth, also you need to look up the definition of pseudoscience and also science also words and definitions, that's a good start.

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11-01-2017, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 07:48 PM by Loom.)
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 07:31 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:50 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How are you defining "obvious" Wink

Irrefutably self-evident.

Of course, it is impossible to reason with one who does not accept or even understand that which is obvious.

For instance, those who question whether we really exist or are living in a dream, people who insist on arguing that the entire universe came into existence from nothing etc. are a waste of my time.

No one is arguing that the universe came from nothing. The evidence suggests it originated from a singularity. What comes prior to the singularity--we don't know. Physics gets weird. The honest answer right now is, 'We don't know, but we're trying to find out.'

Answer me this: where did god come from, and why can't universe be 'the first cause,' assuming that anything can have a beginning?

Not everything is black and white, but a whole lotta gray.

Ignorance is not to be ignored.

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11-01-2017, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 07:52 PM by Heath_Tierney.)
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
Looks like our friend is trying to use the long-since-discredited first cause argument.

Let's look at this another way. (I won't take credit for this but for the life of me I can't remember where I heard it first. Daniel Dennet, perhaps.)

Human's first attempt at understanding nature was pantheist; Gods in trees, lakes, rocks, mountains, plants, etc etc etc.

We looked at the trees, lakes, rocks, etc and found no Gods.

So believers said, "No, the Gods are on the mountain." A cluster of them were said to inhabit Olympus (and other mountains).

We climbed mountains and found no Gods.

Then believers said, "No, there's just one God, and he's on a mountain in Israel." So we climbed that mountain and found no God.

Then the believers said, "God is in the sky, in the firmament, out of reach." So we created machines to take us into the sky and saw no God (or firmament).

Then believers said, "God is in space, in the universe, beyond our reach." So we created machines to take humankind into space, both bodily and through instruments. No God there either.

Now believers say, "God is beyond space and time, beyond the reach of mere mortals." God is now unfalsifiable.

Interesting how this God gets further and further and further away, less definable, less able to be perceived, impossible to pin down.

None of this means that there isn't a God. But it does mean that any such proof of one has yet to be determined.

Yadayadayada, you remind me of myself a number of years ago, and I find it hard to dislike you. But your arguments just don't hold up.

Please just say, "It's a matter of faith" and leave it at that, because if you go after your God with an aim to prove Him through your holy book or some scientific test, you will fail. Every time.
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11-01-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 07:06 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  By definition, the FIRST CAUSE does not have a cause.

Your "first cause" could not have been part of the universe because the universe would not have needed to be created if it already existed. If the "first cause" was not part of the universe then it is outside and the rules you are using do not necessarily apply so the argument falls apart.

Why do you claim a single "first cause" and not allow for multiple simultaneous events? That's certainly no more unreasonable than positing the prior existence of a supremely powerful and intelligent agent that just always existed.

You still haven't even defined what you mean by universe. If it is taken to be all of existence then your god can't have created it unless he didn't exist because if he already existed then existence already was and didn't need creating. If the god is outside the universe then you admit the existence of multiple realities and a non-sentient multiverse becomes a simpler explanation (organized intelligence being more complex than simple matter/energy).

Why is an intelligent agent always existing more reasonable than simple energy always existing? Occam's razor seems to go against your god.

Quote:Why should anything else need a cause ? Because anything else other than the First Cause has a beginning. Everything that has a beginning has a cause.

So you keep asserting and so we keep telling you is ill-defined and not based in anything other than your ignorance and lack of imagination.

Quote:"spirit and heaven have no evidence to support their existence"

That ties in well with my original question. What do you consider to be "evidence"?

In this case, something demonstrable and testable that gives consistent results and allows us to predict other things that also test positive.

Quote:"WHY?" whats the whole point of creating us and the universe ?"

In my theistic view, God gave us the gift of life because of his love for us. The "point" is for us to enjoy life in happiness.

Yes, the universe is a very big place - God intends for righteous humans to live forever.

If that's the case then he's pretty fucking incompetent.

Quote:The problem is, we were given this planet to live on but have made a terrible mess of it. The planet is being ruined, violence and immoral behavior are rampant, society is more depraved than ever. We are living in what the Bible describes as "critical times".

That's been a common refrain for thousands of years....

Horace, 20 BCE Wrote:What has not cankering Time made worse?
Viler than grandsires, sires beget
Ourselves, yet baser, soon to curse
The world with offspring baser yet.

Quote:I believe that God will soon step in and sort out these issues and restore the earth. Then, in the future, when the earth is restored and pseudoscientific theories such as Evolution have been wiped out, we can move forward and start working on the technology necessary to explore our vast universe.

"pseudoscientific theories such as Evolution" Laughat

Why don't you just pray for god to tell you how to explore the universe? Funny how everything we learn comes from people thinking about it and experimenting and figuring it out for themselves. It's almost like there is no god directing things...

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11-01-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 07:31 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  Of course, it is impossible to reason with one who does not accept or even understand that which is obvious.

or with one who claims things are obvious when they are playing a god-of-the-gaps card

Quote:For instance, those who question whether we really exist or are living in a dream, people who insist on arguing that the entire universe came into existence from nothing etc. are a waste of my time.

Since those haven't been claimed you are arguing a strawman.

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11-01-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 07:31 PM)Yadayadayada Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 04:50 PM)jennybee Wrote:  How are you defining "obvious" Wink

Irrefutably self-evident.

Of course, it is impossible to reason with one who does not accept or even understand that which is obvious.

For instance, those who question whether we really exist or are living in a dream, people who insist on arguing that the entire universe came into existence from nothing etc. are a waste of my time.

But those "realities" of people who think that way (i.e. are we living in a dream, do we really exist) are irrefutably self-evident to them. For people who believe(d) in Zeus, Vishnu, Tiamat, Ra, etc., those gods were/are also irrefutably self-evident to them. You can also find sacred writings backing their beliefs--just like you can in the Bible. Lots of verses giving credence to their gods creating things. Why are their "irrefutably self-evident" beliefs false and yours are true?

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11-01-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
That's an awful lot of wrong to contend with, might not be worth the time.

*ponders*

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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11-01-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 08:11 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  That's an awful lot of wrong to contend with, might not be worth the time.

*ponders*

You're turning over a new leaf in the New Year? Tongue

Oh come on, you know you wanna Big Grin

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11-01-2017, 08:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 08:20 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Evidence for the existence of God
(11-01-2017 08:12 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 08:11 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  That's an awful lot of wrong to contend with, might not be worth the time.

*ponders*

You're turning over a new leaf in the New Year? Tongue

Oh come on, you know you wanna Big Grin
Not so, I intend to stay the same aggressive son-of-a-bitch I ever was. It's just....the OP is offering nothing new that we haven't ripped apart a dozen dozen times before.

I mean....."fine tuning" and "First Cause"....really? That's it? He asks for the definition of evidence and then tries to argue his own warped "self-evident" nonsense while providing no evidence to back his assertions up. Don't know if there is any comedy to be had and I feel like I'd be picking on a two-legged puppy his stuffs so weak and sad. It's like throwing a squirrel at a moving semi, there ain't no mystery on how it's gonna end.

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