Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
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17-10-2012, 02:41 PM
Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
a. Paul (AD5-67) – beheaded
b. Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 AD.
i. One of the first deacons
c. Saint James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
d. Saint Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
e. Saint Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd (a combination of battle axe and spear) in 60 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
f. Saint Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
g. Ignatius (AD35/55 – 98) disciple of John, Coliseum (AD6-c.100).

h. Polycarp (AD69-155) disciple of John, bound and burned.
i. As noted both were disciples of the Apostle John, as disciple of Jesus, original witness.

(note: as seen by the dates, some were killed quite early on after Jesus’ death and burial. Others, years, to decades later – while persecution continued. None recanted their accounts.)

2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

Cultural consideration:

The Jews’ (the disciples were Jewish, remember) belief of resurrection was that it would occur at the end of the world only. However, the disciples believed that he was resurrected before such, not fitting with Jewish belief.

Is there a “better” explanation?

So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?

Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.

However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So I will, for now, leave it at that, and address issues as they are no doubt for sure to come up. Should be nothing new to anyone, and I look forward to the discussion.
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17-10-2012, 02:53 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

Ummm, I hate to say it... but... you base your entire argument off a fallacy.

There is no evidence of the aforementioned except "it's generally accepted".

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17-10-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

Ummm, I hate to say it... but... you base your entire argument off a fallacy.

There is no evidence of the aforementioned except "it's generally accepted".

given that we are dealing with a historical event, all we can say when it comes to such is either "accepted" historically or not.

The four pieces I presented are accepted as historic by most scholars, secular and otherwise.

it's the same as saying: most scholars accept that Caesar was an emperor or Rome. this is generally accepted as historic, thus an argument to show as such is not needed.

Same with the four I presented.
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17-10-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Even wikipedia has this "moder scholars" accept the crucifixion as fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
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17-10-2012, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2012 03:13 PM by KidCharlemagne1962.)
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:57 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ummm, I hate to say it... but... you base your entire argument off a fallacy.

There is no evidence of the aforementioned except "it's generally accepted".

given that we are dealing with a historical event, all we can say when it comes to such is either "accepted" historically or not.

The four pieces I presented are accepted as historic by most scholars, secular and otherwise.

it's the same as saying: most scholars accept that Caesar was an emperor or Rome. this is generally accepted as historic, thus an argument to show as such is not needed.

Same with the four I presented.

KC was trying to help you out and you should have taken his advice.Drinking Beverage

The histoical evidence for the crucifixtion is a tad on the slim side, actually get outside the Bible and you can cue the cricket chorus. The historicity of Jesus is argued let alone all the miraculous stuff. So when the bible says the dead rose after the resurrection of Jesus why isn't that noted anywhere outside the bible.

One of my favorite Christopher Hitchens quotes (after listing the resurrections in the Bible as there are at least 3 in addition to Jesus) "It seems resurrection was a bit of a banality at the time."

The Ceasar's are historically accepted as evidence exists of them from multiple sources. We have artifacts, please note, we have no historical proof of their gods.

Argue your point from faith and we'll agree or disagree accordingly. Trying to argue your belief as fact will not work.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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17-10-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Show us the poll of the scholars.
"Generally accepted" is the Argumentum ad Populum Fallacy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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17-10-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Chaaaaaaaaas! Get in here we have a Christian for you to sort out!

I can always count on Chas to bash the theists Smile
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17-10-2012, 03:10 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:57 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 02:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Ummm, I hate to say it... but... you base your entire argument off a fallacy.

There is no evidence of the aforementioned except "it's generally accepted".

given that we are dealing with a historical event, all we can say when it comes to such is either "accepted" historically or not.

The four pieces I presented are accepted as historic by most scholars, secular and otherwise.

it's the same as saying: most scholars accept that Caesar was an emperor or Rome. this is generally accepted as historic, thus an argument to show as such is not needed.

Same with the four I presented.

No, it's not the same.

There are multiple documents outside of religion that show Caesar's rule.

Almost all documentation of Jesus is religious texts.

And while the crucifixion may be accepted as fact, the others are a bit of a stretch to say that secular scholars accept them as fact without proof.

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17-10-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
a. Paul (AD5-67) – beheaded
b. Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 AD.
i. One of the first deacons
c. Saint James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
d. Saint Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
e. Saint Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd (a combination of battle axe and spear) in 60 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
f. Saint Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
g. Ignatius (AD35/55 – 98) disciple of John, Coliseum (AD6-c.100).

h. Polycarp (AD69-155) disciple of John, bound and burned.
i. As noted both were disciples of the Apostle John, as disciple of Jesus, original witness.

(note: as seen by the dates, some were killed quite early on after Jesus’ death and burial. Others, years, to decades later – while persecution continued. None recanted their accounts.)

2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

Cultural consideration:

The Jews’ (the disciples were Jewish, remember) belief of resurrection was that it would occur at the end of the world only. However, the disciples believed that he was resurrected before such, not fitting with Jewish belief.

Is there a “better” explanation?

So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?

Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.

However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So I will, for now, leave it at that, and address issues as they are no doubt for sure to come up. Should be nothing new to anyone, and I look forward to the discussion.

Some links to sources would be handy.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-10-2012, 03:14 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
a. Paul (AD5-67) – beheaded
b. Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 AD.
i. One of the first deacons
c. Saint James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
d. Saint Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
e. Saint Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd (a combination of battle axe and spear) in 60 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
f. Saint Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
g. Ignatius (AD35/55 – 98) disciple of John, Coliseum (AD6-c.100).

h. Polycarp (AD69-155) disciple of John, bound and burned.
i. As noted both were disciples of the Apostle John, as disciple of Jesus, original witness.

(note: as seen by the dates, some were killed quite early on after Jesus’ death and burial. Others, years, to decades later – while persecution continued. None recanted their accounts.)

2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

Cultural consideration:

The Jews’ (the disciples were Jewish, remember) belief of resurrection was that it would occur at the end of the world only. However, the disciples believed that he was resurrected before such, not fitting with Jewish belief.

Is there a “better” explanation?

So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?

Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.

However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So I will, for now, leave it at that, and address issues as they are no doubt for sure to come up. Should be nothing new to anyone, and I look forward to the discussion.

Resurrection is not spelled with two "s" 's Jeebus would not be pleased, Idiot.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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