Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
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17-10-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
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17-10-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 03:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
a. Paul (AD5-67) – beheaded
b. Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 AD.
i. One of the first deacons
c. Saint James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
d. Saint Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
e. Saint Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd (a combination of battle axe and spear) in 60 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
f. Saint Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
g. Ignatius (AD35/55 – 98) disciple of John, Coliseum (AD6-c.100).

h. Polycarp (AD69-155) disciple of John, bound and burned.
i. As noted both were disciples of the Apostle John, as disciple of Jesus, original witness.

(note: as seen by the dates, some were killed quite early on after Jesus’ death and burial. Others, years, to decades later – while persecution continued. None recanted their accounts.)

2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

Cultural consideration:

The Jews’ (the disciples were Jewish, remember) belief of resurrection was that it would occur at the end of the world only. However, the disciples believed that he was resurrected before such, not fitting with Jewish belief.

Is there a “better” explanation?

So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?

Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.

However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So I will, for now, leave it at that, and address issues as they are no doubt for sure to come up. Should be nothing new to anyone, and I look forward to the discussion.

Resurrection is not spelled with two "s" 's Jeebus would not be pleased, Idiot.

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17-10-2012, 03:17 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Quote:given that we are dealing with a historical event, all we can say when it comes to such is either "accepted" historically or not.

The four pieces I presented are accepted as historic by most scholars, secular and otherwise.

it's the same as saying: most scholars accept that Caesar was an emperor or Rome. this is generally accepted as historic, thus an argument to show as such is not needed.

Same with the four I presented.
Let me just say thank you! I have never met someone with such an appropriate moniker.

Now to address your response to kingschosen reply.

It is either accepted or not. Yes, I accept things when there is sufficient evidence or it has been proven via logic.

I am not convinced that the pieces of evidence you presented are accepted as fact by most secular scholars, but even it it were, as kingschosen pointed out, it is a fallacy to think that a majority is correct because it is a majority. If this was true than no innocent people would have ever been imprisoned in modern America, but as we know, people are wrong, and sometimes downright stupid.

The reason why it is a fact that Caesar was an Emporer of Rome is because the sources were so plentiful. There is no source (not a single one) that was actually around during Jesus alleged life to even support that he existed at all. So you can see (probably not) why it is rather assumptive to believe any details about his life, considering we have not even established that we was alive, especially the claims of the supernatural.

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17-10-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 03:11 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  
(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  EVIDENCE FOR THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS

NOTE: what I will present is a general, broad, list of evidence that also is quite easily found elsewhere in various forms on the internet and in debates such as offered by William Lane Craig, etc. If this has been offered up by others on here, I apologize, but this is in a direct request, thus I am posting it. As this is a broad brush look at the evidence, as the discussion goes on - if it does - details will be looked at as needed.

Okay then:

To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
a. Paul (AD5-67) – beheaded
b. Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 34 AD.
i. One of the first deacons
c. Saint James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
d. Saint Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
e. Saint Matthew the Evangelist killed with a halberd (a combination of battle axe and spear) in 60 AD.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
f. Saint Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
i. One of original 12 apostles.
g. Ignatius (AD35/55 – 98) disciple of John, Coliseum (AD6-c.100).

h. Polycarp (AD69-155) disciple of John, bound and burned.
i. As noted both were disciples of the Apostle John, as disciple of Jesus, original witness.

(note: as seen by the dates, some were killed quite early on after Jesus’ death and burial. Others, years, to decades later – while persecution continued. None recanted their accounts.)

2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

Cultural consideration:

The Jews’ (the disciples were Jewish, remember) belief of resurrection was that it would occur at the end of the world only. However, the disciples believed that he was resurrected before such, not fitting with Jewish belief.

Is there a “better” explanation?

So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?

Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.

However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So I will, for now, leave it at that, and address issues as they are no doubt for sure to come up. Should be nothing new to anyone, and I look forward to the discussion.

Some links to sources would be handy.

http://www.bbc.edu/journal/volume6_1/res...omacki.pdf
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hild...n1-CTR.pdf
http://academics.holycross.edu/files/cre...script.pdf

there's a few...just google: historicity of the resurrection and evidence of the resurrection and you will find more. As well as links to books too.
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17-10-2012, 03:20 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
IFC, also note that I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ; however, I do accept the fact that there isn't much proof of it outside religion.

Trying to make "facts" fit in a world view doesn't strengthen one's case. Like people have said, there is sufficient evidence that could be used to completely deny the existence of a historical Jesus.

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17-10-2012, 03:23 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Quote:I am not convinced that the pieces of evidence you presented are accepted as fact by most secular scholars, but even it it were, as kingschosen pointed out, it is a fallacy to think that a majority is correct because it is a majority.


Correct, which is why we look to WHO is in the majority as well. As if it were just Christians, it would then be compeltely irrelevant. However, atheist scholars as well accept this and are part of the majority.

It is an interpretation of the evidence, for sure. Of course I'm going off the proposition the events (four facts) are true. that the majority of scholars agree, no, doesn't make them true.
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17-10-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
Quote:I am not convinced that the pieces of evidence you presented are accepted as fact by most secular scholars, but even it it were, as kingschosen pointed out, it is a fallacy to think that a majority is correct because it is a majority.


Correct, which is why we look to WHO is in the majority as well. As if it were just Christians, it would then be compeltely irrelevant. However, atheist scholars as well accept this and are part of the majority.

It is an interpretation of the evidence, for sure. Of course I'm going off the proposition the events (four facts) are true. that the majority of scholars agree, no, doesn't make them true.
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17-10-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 03:23 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
Quote:I am not convinced that the pieces of evidence you presented are accepted as fact by most secular scholars, but even it it were, as kingschosen pointed out, it is a fallacy to think that a majority is correct because it is a majority.


Correct, which is why we look to WHO is in the majority as well. As if it were just Christians, it would then be compeltely irrelevant. However, atheist scholars as well accept this and are part of the majority.

It is an interpretation of the evidence, for sure. Of course I'm going off the proposition the events (four facts) are true. that the majority of scholars agree, no, doesn't make them true.

This confuses me. Atheists who accept the crucifixion? Or atheists who accept the resurrection?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-10-2012, 03:27 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
He promises, and he delivers! Thanks for the thread.

(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  To start off, I will provide a list of what is generally accepted as historical facts.

1) Jesus died via crucifixion.
2) Jesus was buried in a tomb.
3) A few days later Jesus’ tomb was discovered empty by his women followers.
4) Disciples had experiences they believed to be true and actual appearance of the risen Jesus. (including accounts from Paul of Jesus appearing before 500 additional people)

Is the account of Paul considered a historically accurate fact by scholars?

(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  These four are the foundation upon which the remaining pieces of evidence set.

1) The disciple’s lives were transformed because of (5) so much so that they would die for this belief.
2) This Gospel was the central message of the early church and.
3) Even proclaimed this message in Jerusalem, where Jesus was killed and buried.
4) Jesus’ brother James was a skeptic, until his own encounter with the risen Jesus.
5) Paul, an early prosecutor of the early church, was also converted by his own experience with the risen Jesus.
a. Also, as noted around the time of Jesus’ ministry, death, and claimed resurrection.
6) Jewish leadership (hostile to the early church) was unable to derail the message, despite both motive and means.
a. Best offering they had to try and discredit the resurrection: they stole the body.
7) Sunday became a day of worship, which was a departure from Jewish tradition.

I want to distill your arguments here before commenting. Please correct any errors here. Your argument, in part, is:

1. The willingness of people to die for their belief is a testament to its truth;
2. The conversion of skeptics is a testament to its truth;
3. The breaking of very strong Jewish traditions is a testament to its truth;
4. The persistence of the message, in spite of great opposition, is a testament to its truth;

If these are correct, are you willing to allow them as evidence for other belief systems as well?

(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  So, given the evidence above, what could be a better explanation than Jesus rose from the dead as the disciples claim?
Many other “theories” have been offered up. IE. Wrong tomb, stolen body – as the Jewish leadership offered, not completely dead, mass hallucinations, etc.
Also, unlike the resurrection, the other theories need more than ONE additional hypothesis. Resurrection needs only one: God exists.

So what is more probable and likely? A tomb was robbed, a body was misplaced, or God reanimated Jesus? Do you consider probability when considering all the theories?

(17-10-2012 02:41 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  However, these fall short of explanatory scope and power as the resurrection would.

How do they fall short? Can you elaborate how a robbed tomb falls short as an explanation? I understand that as a theist it falls short in reconciling your faith. Can you explain how it falls short to someone outside the Christian faith?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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17-10-2012, 03:29 PM
RE: Evidence for the resurrection of Jesus...ENJOY!
(17-10-2012 03:23 PM)Idiot for Christ Wrote:  
Quote:I am not convinced that the pieces of evidence you presented are accepted as fact by most secular scholars, but even it it were, as kingschosen pointed out, it is a fallacy to think that a majority is correct because it is a majority.


Correct, which is why we look to WHO is in the majority as well. As if it were just Christians, it would then be compeltely irrelevant. However, atheist scholars as well accept this and are part of the majority.

It is an interpretation of the evidence, for sure. Of course I'm going off the proposition the events (four facts) are true. that the majority of scholars agree, no, doesn't make them true.

Okay... a couple of things:

1) You keep saying "majority" but this doesn't make it fact. Go back to my point about the fallacy... that and list this "majority".

2) You accept that your evidence is based on a faulty premise and can only be debated if that premise was true. From the simple fact that your foundation isn't structurally sound, your argument has nothing to stand on.

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