Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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03-07-2012, 02:06 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(03-07-2012 06:56 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Sorry if somebody already mentioned it, but there were threats from Al Queda to the USA because they killed Osama Bin Laden... Of course, The government WILL NOT confirm nor deny the statements Al Queda seems to have made. Take it anyway you want, links:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...7920110506

http://www.examiner.com/article/al-qaeda...eath-video

I recommend you research and see if everything checks out, I am intersted in the truth.
Michelle Bachmann hates Obama, more than she loves life, so if there were any way she could have spun the photos she would have. She and James Inhofe spent quite a while looking at photos. I don't really see any reason to think they were not shown actual photos of both the compound, and later that night.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/sele...den-photos
Seems the Chinese believed it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viPXZ8wVdM0

Move along.

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03-07-2012, 05:22 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(03-07-2012 06:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  For the sake of the argument, I'll assume that they would've been able to do the test within the given timeframe. Even then the fact remains that they did not provide any evidence that they even made this DNA test, you are taking the government's word as fact, even though it certainly isn't.

They don't need to so why should they other than to shut up the skeptics?. The police don't publish DNA results of criminals and murder victims. Or even the pictures of their body. (sometimes they do along the line but its not exactly common) They are shown to a small number of individuals and then to a court. So Why would a terrorist be different?

There is no reason to release anything to do with bin laden.

(03-07-2012 06:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  In terms of the basic requirements for Muslim burials, standard practice involves placing the body in a grave with the head pointed toward the holy city of Mecca. Burial at sea is rare in Islam, though Muslim websites say it is permitted in certain circumstances. One is during a long voyage where the body may decompose and pose a health hazard to a ship's passengers, an exception noted on Monday by Tunisian scholar Ahmed al-Gharbi. Another is if there is a risk of enemies digging up a and grave and exhuming or mutilating the body.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...-bin-laden[/quote]

I was actually just referring to the disposal of a body within a time frame rather than the buried in a traditional way.
Another thing about burying him on land, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to bury him without someone noticing the military arriving somewhere and then digging. Its not exactly subtle. So in that sense a sea burial makes more sense.

(03-07-2012 06:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I've finally done a bit more research and as it turns out, the government said that they're not going to release the real image after the one circulating in the Internet turned out to be fake.

May 03, 2011: The fake image is debunked
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world...s=PM:WORLD

May 04, 2011: Obama makes the announcement that the real photo is not going to be released
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...7920110504

Since when has a government ever given an instant statement? they always take ages before announcing something. This is no different


(03-07-2012 06:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  You seem to confuse something here. It is literally impossible for me to disprove that they've killed him with the given information. All I do is criticize that they have yet to bring forth just one shred of evidence that what they say is true. You are the one supporting the claim that Osama Bin Laden was killed by U.S. forces, you have to deliver the proof.

If you read my first post you will see that i find the whole thing a bit strange. I mean they paraded Saddam on camera. They even showed him being checked to see if he was the real deal. I'm not supporting any side. I'm merely questioning your points. Points which you haven't backed up.
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05-07-2012, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2012 07:31 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(03-07-2012 05:22 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  They don't need to so why should they other than to shut up the skeptics?. The police don't publish DNA results of criminals and murder victims. Or even the pictures of their body. (sometimes they do along the line but its not exactly common) They are shown to a small number of individuals and then to a court. So Why would a terrorist be different?

There is no reason to release anything to do with bin laden.
The president of the U.S. doesn't make a press announcement when a "normal" criminal is killed either. Osama Bin Laden wasn't just a petty terrorist, he was the leader of one the most dangerous terrorist organizations and one the most searched persons. But you're missing the point entirely. I can at least see why they wouldn't release the image of his corpse, but there is no rational reason not to publish the results of the DNA tests to prove their claim. If they didn't think it was necessary to prove what they said, then why did they even consider releasing the photo? There's no reason to do so other than to prove that they've killed him.

(03-07-2012 05:22 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  I was actually just referring to the disposal of a body within a time frame rather than the buried in a traditional way.

Another thing about burying him on land, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to bury him without someone noticing the military arriving somewhere and then digging. Its not exactly subtle. So in that sense a sea burial makes more sense.
Originally you said that "the whole point about not realeasing the photo and disposing of the body was about keeping with muslim tradition dealing with the dead. And not stiring up any anger about his death."

Guess what, they buried him in an untraditional way and by doing so they did stir up the anger of fundamentalists. That's why I call bullshit on the whole "We don't release the photographs so that they don't get mad"-theory. They obviously don't care about the reactions of these people, otherwise they wouldn't have buried him in a way that contradicts the traditional method.

(03-07-2012 05:22 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  If you read my first post you will see that i find the whole thing a bit strange. I mean they paraded Saddam on camera. They even showed him being checked to see if he was the real deal. I'm not supporting any side. I'm merely questioning your points. Points which you haven't backed up.
Which "points" do you want me to back up? As I've mentioned before, I do not have the burden of proof. Hell, I'm not even saying that it's a conspiracy, all I'm saying is that there is no rational reason to believe that their claim is true if there is zero evidence supporting it and when they're unwilling to even release the "harmless" evidence (DNA test).

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05-07-2012, 07:43 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(05-07-2012 07:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  ...and when they're unwilling to even release the "harmless" evidence (DNA test).
the generally scientifically illiterate population wouldn't understand the DNA results; what would be the point?

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05-07-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Chas made a good point about the DNA results. Most people wouldn't be able to Interpret the results. Plus how would they be able to prove that the published results where his and taken from his body?. It doesn't matter if he's a terrorist. A criminal is still a criminal and they don't publish the DNA results of other criminals etc so why would they need to just to keep a handfull of conspiracy theorists happy?
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05-07-2012, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2012 08:16 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(05-07-2012 08:06 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Chas made a good point about the DNA results. Most people wouldn't be able to Interpret the results. Plus how would they be able to prove that the published results where his and taken from his body?
Still doesn't mean that independent scientists couldn't evaluate the results. As for the latter one, that's true, they can't prove that the samples were taken from Osama.

(05-07-2012 08:06 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  It doesn't matter if he's a terrorist. A criminal is still a criminal and they don't publish the DNA results of other criminals etc so why would they need to just to keep a handfull of conspiracy theorists happy?
You have yet to answer my question why they would even consider releasing the photo if they didn't want to prove that they've killed him and you have yet to refute my argument that there is no reason to believe the story if there is no evidence for it. In fact, you have just adressed one of the many questions I asked you. You have claimed that I need to back up my points, which points did I make that I need to provide evidence for?

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06-07-2012, 11:12 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I've always been skeptical about the evidence presented by the U.S. government about Osama Bin Laden since it turned out to be fake on multiple occasions.

Which occasions?

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #1. The supposedly real photo of Osama Bin Laden's corpse turned out to be fake
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guar...sh-004.jpg
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world...s=PM:WORLD

If you actually read the article that you linked, you'll see this:

Quote:The doctored image blanketed the Internet in the hours after bin Laden's death and was picked up by news groups far and wide, in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Senegal and Iraq.

Meanwhile, U.S. officials are weighing whether to release an actual image of bin Laden's corpse. A photograph could help to convince doubters about his death, but it also could inflame passions against the United States.

So that photograph isn't an example of false evidence released by the government. It came from another source.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #2. The government didn't admit that the photograph was fake until it was debunked

By your own source, that photograph wasn't released by the government. They had no reason to "admit" anything, since they weren't involved.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #3. The government has yet to provide any credible evidence that he is in fact dead
http://www.infowars.com/media-runs-fake-...ropaganda/

Infowars is not a reliable source by any stretch of the word.

Alex Jones is a known nutter who will promote any conspiracy theory as long as it gets people to listen to his radio show. There really isn't anything else that needs to be said, but in case that isn't enough, al Qaeda released a public statement on the internet vowing revenge for bin Laden's death at American hands.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #4. The government released videos that were claimed to come from Osama Bin Laden, but turned out to be fake
http://www.dailypaul.com/135949/cia-admi...den-videos
http://www.prisonplanet.com/former-cia-o...video.html
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/..._to_d.html

Ron Paul is hardly a better source than Alex Jones. Even if he was, your own sources discredit themselves again.

The CIA admitted to faking nothing; it was a single blog post by someone claiming to be a former intelligence operative that was used as the source for all the other stories about it. Even that blog post stated that none of the videos were released, and that most of them were never even made. Even the ones that they were able to confirm through other sources as actually existing were never released. And even if they had been released, they have nothing to do with his death, and were meant only to undermine his reputation in the Middle East.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I didn't do enough research about this topic to form to a profound opinion, but I do think the governments actions are highly suspicious and they do beg the question of why they would release information which they know is false.

They didn't.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Why would they allow fake photos to be spread in the media if they knew they were fake?

They didn't release the photos. They didn't necessarily know they were fake. Even if they did know that they were fake, they can't censor the media without violating the First Amendment.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Why would they submit fake videos of Osama Bin Laden?

They didn't.

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07-07-2012, 04:21 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2012 04:26 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(06-07-2012 11:12 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #1. The supposedly real photo of Osama Bin Laden's corpse turned out to be fake
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guar...sh-004.jpg
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world...s=PM:WORLD

If you actually read the article that you linked, you'll see this:

Quote:The doctored image blanketed the Internet in the hours after bin Laden's death and was picked up by news groups far and wide, in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Senegal and Iraq.

Meanwhile, U.S. officials are weighing whether to release an actual image of bin Laden's corpse. A photograph could help to convince doubters about his death, but it also could inflame passions against the United States.

So that photograph isn't an example of false evidence released by the government. It came from another source.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #2. The government didn't admit that the photograph was fake until it was debunked

By your own source, that photograph wasn't released by the government. They had no reason to "admit" anything, since they weren't involved.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #3. The government has yet to provide any credible evidence that he is in fact dead
http://www.infowars.com/media-runs-fake-...ropaganda/

Infowars is not a reliable source by any stretch of the word.

Alex Jones is a known nutter who will promote any conspiracy theory as long as it gets people to listen to his radio show. There really isn't anything else that needs to be said, but in case that isn't enough, al Qaeda released a public statement on the internet vowing revenge for bin Laden's death at American hands.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  #4. The government released videos that were claimed to come from Osama Bin Laden, but turned out to be fake
http://www.dailypaul.com/135949/cia-admi...den-videos
http://www.prisonplanet.com/former-cia-o...video.html
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/..._to_d.html

Ron Paul is hardly a better source than Alex Jones. Even if he was, your own sources discredit themselves again.

The CIA admitted to faking nothing; it was a single blog post by someone claiming to be a former intelligence operative that was used as the source for all the other stories about it. Even that blog post stated that none of the videos were released, and that most of them were never even made. Even the ones that they were able to confirm through other sources as actually existing were never released. And even if they had been released, they have nothing to do with his death, and were meant only to undermine his reputation in the Middle East.

(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I didn't do enough research about this topic to form to a profound opinion, but I do think the governments actions are highly suspicious and they do beg the question of why they would release information which they know is false.

They didn't.
(29-06-2012 05:16 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Why would they submit fake videos of Osama Bin Laden?

They didn't.
Aye, we've discussed the claims of the original post on the previous pages. I even mentioned that these sources may not be reliable. I honestly wasn't that certain myself, because I assumed that some of them are probably conspiracy sites. However, if you don't mind, I'd like you to adress the other points made in this thread, for example the lack of physical evidence for his death, the unwillingness to release the existing evidence (photographs of his corpse, DNA test results) and the unusual burial of his dead body.

Quote:They didn't release the photos. They didn't necessarily know they were fake. Even if they did know that they were fake, they can't censor the media without violating the First Amendment.
They don't need to censor the media, all they need to do is make a press announcement that these photos are not real. As I've said, that one particular image was in the news all over the world. Also, the government must have known that it was fake, because they are the only one's possessing the real one.

Quote:Which occasions?
Touché, without the video, there probably was no false information released by the government specifically. I admit that I should've done more research about these particular claims before posting them.

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07-07-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(07-07-2012 04:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Aye, we've discussed the claims of the original post on the previous pages. I even mentioned that these sources may not be reliable.

Yeah. Just giving more information.

(07-07-2012 04:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  However, if you don't mind, I'd like you to adress the other points made in this thread, for example the lack of physical evidence for his death, the unwillingness to release the existing evidence (photographs of his corpse, DNA test results) and the unusual burial of his dead body.

All of which are pretty much irrelevant. Whether or not the government releases explanations for all of these things, the fact remains that al Qaeda themselves admit that bin Laden is dead. I'm not part of the government. I can't read their minds and find out why they feel the need to keep this stuff secret (though the burial at sea was never a secret, and was done for two simple reasons: one, to keep Muslims from objecting that his body wasn't buried within twenty-four hours, as is part of their religion, and two, to keep there from being an actual grave site that could either be desecrated or become a rallying point for terrorists), nor do I care to spend hours researching the court rulings on why these things don't have to be released. Because, as I said, it's ultimately irrelevant, as bin Laden is dead. Even his most fanatical followers admit that.

(07-07-2012 04:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  They don't need to censor the media, all they need to do is make a press announcement that these photos are not real. As I've said, that one particular image was in the news all over the world. Also, the government must have known that it was fake, because they are the only one's possessing the real one.

Except that it wasn't "in news all over the world". It was published in a few small papers (MediaLine, a Middle East news website, and Britain's Daily Mail among them; the Mail in particular is basically a tabloid). From there, its only usage was on conspiracy websites. Other, more reputable news outlets didn't print it. In many cases, they didn't even acknowledge its existence. Even assuming that this was a huge thing, why should the government go so far as to release a press statement about it? Why should they care? The truth would come out eventually, and in the meantime they're busy running DNA tests and dealing with the fallout. A single photo is hardly a huge thing.

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07-07-2012, 02:40 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  All of which are pretty much irrelevant. Whether or not the government releases explanations for all of these things, the fact remains that al Qaeda themselves admit that bin Laden is dead.
I recommend you to read the previous pages, you'll save yourself a lot of effort. I don't doubt that Osama is dead, I doubt that U.S. forces have killed him, because there is no evidence for it. If you choose to believe it, it is most likely based on faith.

(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  I'm not part of the government. I can't read their minds and find out why they feel the need to keep this stuff secret
And neither can I. As I've said before, all I do is demanding evidence before I believe in something. Granted, the OP claimed more than that, but we've been over that one already. Even back then I didn't suggest that it was a conspiracy.

(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  (though the burial at sea was never a secret, and was done for two simple reasons: one, to keep Muslims from objecting that his body wasn't buried within twenty-four hours, as is part of their religion, and two, to keep there from being an actual grave site that could either be desecrated or become a rallying point for terrorists),
I didn't say that the sea burial was secret. If it was, we wouldn't know about it. As for the rest, see above. You should read the previous pages. If their goal was to keep the muslim tradition of burying the dead, then they shouldn't have buried him in the sea in the first place, because that is only allowed in special cases. Also, it wouldn't have been hard to bury him at an unknown location on dry land.

(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  nor do I care to spend hours researching the court rulings on why these things don't have to be released. Because, as I said, it's ultimately irrelevant, as bin Laden is dead. Even his most fanatical followers admit that.
Indeed, I don't question that he's dead. Otherwise he would've let us known by know.

(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Except that it wasn't "in news all over the world". It was published in a few small papers (MediaLine, a Middle East news website, and Britain's DailyMail among them; the Mail in particular is basically a tabloid). From there, its only usage was on conspiracy websites. Other, more reputable news outlets didn't print it. In many cases, they didn't even acknowledge its existence.
Except that it was. I can name you at the very least five newspapers just from Germany, including the most popular one, who published the image. I'm confident that an internet research would bring up a lot more results than just those.

(07-07-2012 11:34 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Even assuming that this was a huge thing, why should the government go so far as to release a press statement about it? Why should they care? The truth would come out eventually, and in the meantime they're busy running DNA tests and dealing with the fallout. A single photo is hardly a huge thing.
According to the official story, the DNA test was done before he was buried. And they should care because they're the ones claiming that publishing an image of his corpse would cause an outrage in the muslim fundamentalist community.

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