Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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09-07-2012, 06:32 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(09-07-2012 04:01 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Come on Vosur it makes absolutely no sense that Al Qaeda would go along with the US claim that they killed Bin laden, if he had in fact as you claim
(02-07-2012 06:59 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Osama Bin Laden supposedly died long ago because of a disease.
I said "supposedly" on purpose, because I'm not convinced that this is the truth. I did not find a reliable source for it, hence the lack of a source in that post, I was just stating an alternative. I don't what happened to him, you don't know what happened to him, nobody but those involved know what happened to him, unless evidence is released to the public. This thread wouldn't exist in the first place if they were to show the photograph. I still don't get what the big deal is when they didn't care about the reactions of fundamentalists in other situations.

And I ask you my previous question again, if they didn't care about the skepticism of those who doubt that the U.S. forces have killed him, then why did they want to release the photograph in the first place? If they think that everyone is going to believe it anyway and those who do not are just crazy conspiracy theorists, then why did they want to prove it?

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09-07-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
I think there are several possible answers to your question, including:
1. the US Government announced they killed him. They are certainly now not going to debate the topic. For them, the discussion is over and done with. Regardless of whether you believe they killed him or not, why open it up and have a debate?
2. Discussing these claims opens the door. As a matter of policy, I don't think there is any government on the planet that gets into a situation where it is now "proving" or "justifying" its claims. That opens the door for a never ending series of "ok, but prove this!". No government is going to open the door to that. They are not there to make you believe their claims. I'm pretty certain they don't give a rat's ass if you believe them or not. The message is not delivered for you. It is delivered for governments and to groups like al queda. Those groups know it is true (or not true) and act and react accordingly. If there are a handful of conspiracy theorists out there who don't believe it, trust me on this, the US (and any other) government could care less.

Regarding the photo, I think that is pretty easy too:
1. Photos can be fakes. Even if they release one, there are people who will never believe it, period.
2. Bloody pictures can open questions about whether they really needed to shoot him. I don't know if they shot him in cold blood, while he was surrendering, but if they didn't, I'm reasonably confident they would have. I simply can't believe there was ever any intention of bringing him in alive. I could of course be wrong on that, but there are no shortage of people who are convinced of exactly that: it was a kill mission. Why provide any forensic evidence of it?
3. Why inflame Muslims by showing his death photo? That would be considered disrespectful. You know offing this guy is going to rouse up the idiots so why add to that? Why give them propaganda and recruiting materials? This is probably the reason they gave him a burial at sea with full Muslim services. They were going out of their way not to further piss off the world wide Muslim community.

You don't want to believe they shot him, then don't believe it. As for the comment that the burden is on the US to provide proof they did, they have. They have provided all kinds of details of things they have recovered from him, details on his operation, etc. If you want to convince people this is all bullshit, the burden of proof is on you.

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09-07-2012, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2012 07:42 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think there are several possible answers to your question, including:
1. the US Government announced they killed him. They are certainly now not going to debate the topic. For them, the discussion is over and done with. Regardless of whether you believe they killed him or not, why open it up and have a debate?
Which question is this supposed to answer? It would be helpful if you would quote the parts you're referring to. I can at the very least tell that it didn't answer any of the questions that I've asked in the last post of mine.

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  2. Discussing these claims opens the door. As a matter of policy, I don't think there is any government on the planet that gets into a
situation where it is now "proving" or "justifying" its claims. That opens the door for a never ending series of "ok, but prove this!". No government is going to open the door to that. They are not there to make you believe their claims. I'm pretty certain they don't give a rat's ass if you believe them or not. The message is not delivered for you. It is delivered for governments and to groups like al queda. Those groups know it is true (or not true) and act and react accordingly. If there are a handful of conspiracy theorists out there who don't believe it, trust me on this, the US (and any other) government could care less.
First of all, that's a strawman. I have never said that the government cares about the opinion of an individual (me). Second of all, you're wrong. Watch the press announcement yourself. At the very beginning Obama says "Tonight I can report to the american people and to the world that the United States have conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden [...]" Doesn't sound like this message was made only for governments and Al'Qaeda, does it?

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  Regarding the photo, I think that is pretty easy too:

1. Photos can be fakes. Even if they release one, there are people who will never believe it, period.
Can you provide evidence for this assertion? And even if it was the case, how many people do you think still believe that the photoshopped picture of his corpse that was all over the news is legit? If a photograph is proven to be fake, then why should the majority believe that it's real?

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  2. Bloody pictures can open questions about whether they really needed to shoot him. I don't know if they shot him in cold blood, while he was surrendering, but if they didn't, I'm reasonably confident they would have. I simply can't believe there was ever any intention of bringing him in alive. I could of course be wrong on that, but there are no shortage of people who are convinced of exactly that: it was a kill mission. Why provide any forensic evidence of it?
Except that this theory, that Osama was assassinated, has been around ever since Osama bin Laden was announced to be killed. The photo didn't need to be released for people to doubt the way they supposedly killed him. Here are just a few newspapers who brought it up:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42861619/ns/..._uFJfUpHGg
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...assination
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06...58580.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13318372
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blog..._blog.html

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  3. Why inflame Muslims by showing his death photo? That would be considered disrespectful. You know offing this guy is going to rouse up the idiots so why add to that? Why give them propaganda and recruiting materials? This is probably the reason they gave him a burial at sea with full Muslim services. They were going out of their way not to further piss off the world wide Muslim community
Is it too much to ask to read the previous pages so that you don't have repeat arguments which have already been refuted?

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  You don't want to believe they shot him, then don't believe it. As for the comment that the burdenis on the US to provide proof they did, they have. They have provided all kinds of details of things they have recovered from him, details on his operation, etc.
Except that they haven't provided any evidence. How is any of that physical evidence that U.S. forces have killed him?

(09-07-2012 07:07 PM)BnW Wrote:  If you want to convince people this is all bullshit,the burden of proof is on you.
Again, I would appreciate it if you would at least take the time to read what has already been said. My intention is not convince anyone, but to state that it's hypocritical to believe the story without any evidence while making fun of, for example, theists who're doing the very same thing.

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10-07-2012, 07:26 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
I don't think they wanted to release the photo they only considered releasing it which is different.

The photo could be very graphic, there may not be much of his face left meaning the photo couldn't be displayed most places plus it would be useless as proof of identity. If there was enough demand to release the photo/ DNA evidence they may release it. But so far the only people demanding it seem to be a small amount of conspiracy theorists. And that's not a good reason to release something they have no reason to release.

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10-07-2012, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2012 07:50 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 07:26 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  I don't think they wanted to release the photo they only considered releasing it which is different.
How is there any significant difference between the two? Care to elaborate? And it still doesn't answer my question as to why they considered/wanted to release it. If you have no answer for my question, just say so. Nobody can know everything.

(10-07-2012 07:26 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  The photo could be very graphic, there may not be much of his face left meaning the photo couldn't be displayed most places plus it would be useless as proof of identity. If there was enough demand to release the photo/ DNA evidence they may release it. But so far the only people demanding it seem to be a small amount of conspiracy theorists. And that's not a good reason to release something they have no reason to release.
Come on Scot, I know that you can do better than that. You keep throwing out assertions and assumptions that have no basis because you can't provide any evidence for them. Yes, the image could be very graphic and there may not be much of his face left, but since neither of us has seen it, it's just that, an assumption. Also, can you provide a source for the claim that there's only a small amount of people who demand a photograph?

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10-07-2012, 07:48 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Vosur you keep saying strawman, or refering us to previous posts about refuted arguments when your points have been refuted multiple times, you have used strawman arguments yourself, and contiue to ignore any counter points thrown at you. When you have no proof of your points.

Your entire argument is based on the fact that hey haven't released DNA evidence or a photo. Both things they have no reason to release.

Why would al qaeda Allow the US to claim to have killed him if they hadn't? If he had died earlier why would they keep quiet and play along that the US had killed him?

Multiple people have given reasonable reasons for why they buried him at sea, havn't released photos, time taken for DNA tests etc but you don't seem interested in them.

As for the question above where you ask about people who claim real photos as fakes. Perfect example is the moon landing photos. Dispite the evidence that the landing took place. Rock samples, video and photographic evidence, the reflecting mirror thing you can fire a lazer at to determine the distance of the moon, the image of the landing site that was taken recently. All of them prove the moon landing took place. But there are still people that claim it was fake. And no amount of evidence would change that.

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10-07-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Wanting to release them means they were going to and were prevented from doing so for some reason. considering releasing them Means they thought about releasing them but decided against it. Two completely different things.

What I said about the photo may be graphic was a possible reason why they wouldn't release it. I never claimed it was the reason why it wasn't released so why would I need to provide any evidence?

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10-07-2012, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 10-07-2012 08:15 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Vosur you keep saying strawman, or refering us to previous posts about refuted arguments when your points have been refuted multiple times, you have used strawman arguments yourself, and contiue to ignore any counter points thrown at you. When you have no proof of your points.
Actually, I've replied to everyone who wrote something directed at me, which means that I have not ignored any counter points. And please stop being a hypocrite, you have yet to answer at least four questions I've asked you in the course of this thread, one of them being which points I have to back up. You also haven't answered the one in my last post. Furthermore, you're accusing me of having no evidence for my claims, yet you're the one who made several arguments in his last post with nothing to back them up. Finally, where have I been using strawmans myself, care to provide a link?

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Your entire argument is based on the fact that hey haven't released DNA evidence or a photo. Both things they have no reason to release.
Just like the argument for Atheism is that nobody has released any evidence supporting the existence of God. The fact that they don't want to release evidence should make you even more skeptical. You have yet to answer why they considered/wanted to release evidence if they thought that there was no reason to do so.

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Why would al qaeda Allow the US to claim to have killed him if they hadn't? If he had died earlier why would they keep quiet and play along that the US had killed him?
That's an argument from incredulity. The fact that you can't imagine a good answer to that question doesn't mean that there is no sufficient answer to it.

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Multiple people have given reasonable reasons for why they buried him at sea, havn't released photos, time taken for DNA tests etc but you don't seem interested in them.
I've responded to every single one of them offering my points backed up by sources, which is that burying him at sea is untraditional and caused anger whereas burying him at an unknown location on dry land would not have done that. As for the DNA test, I have already admitted that it would've been possible in the given timeframe, so why are you bringing that up? Strawman once again?

(10-07-2012 07:48 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  As for the question above where you ask about people who claim real photos as fakes. Perfect example is the moon landing photos. Dispite the evidence that the landing took place. Rock samples, video and photographic evidence, the reflecting mirror thing you can fire a lazer at to determine the distance of the moon, the image of the landing site that was taken recently. All of them prove the moon landing took place. But there are still people that claim it was fake. And no amount of evidence would change that.
Are you ignoring the whole argument I made on purpose? Did you miss the part where I said that even if that assertion would apply to the given example, why would the majority believe that an image is true if it has been proven to be false?

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10-07-2012, 08:09 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 07:54 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Wanting to release them means they were going to and were prevented from doing so for some reason. considering releasing them Means they thought about releasing them but decided against it. Two completely different things.
For the third time, why did they consider to release it? Why did they even think about releasing it?

(10-07-2012 07:54 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  What I said about the photo may be graphic was a possible reason why they wouldn't release it. I never claimed it was the reason why it wasn't released so why would I need to provide any evidence?
I didn't say that you need to provide evidence, I said that it's merely an assumption if there's no way of knowing whether it's true or false based on the given information.

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10-07-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Vosur the fact that al queda claim the US killed bin laden is proof that the US did in fact kill him. Its not an argument from ignorance. Its a fact. They would not claim it as true and hand the US a victory when they know the US had no part in his death.

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