Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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10-07-2012, 08:17 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(03-07-2012 05:02 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
Quote:Yes there is holes in lots of ideas and these are all concrete holes that can be looked into... But you have no evidence on the side of the contrary. You can question it but just as the same with God, there isn't any legitimate evidence to say this or that about him.
Strawman. I didn't claim that I have evidence of the contrary, but I am not making the claim after all, so it doesn't matter anyway. In one of his announcments, Obama claimed that U.S. troops have killed Osama Bin Laden. He is making the claim, therefore he has the burden of proof. The government has yet to release any evidence suggesting that what he said is true.

Quote:You have to think about how much power this could give the oppositional forces ifthis info was not true. If he had died before, how come other fellow operatives of his and Al Quida that don't want the US aiding Israel or in Afghanistan trying to get the message out after a year now that the U.S. entirely fabricating the story.
How are the opposotional forces supposed to disprove the claim that they've killed him? As for the second one, can you rephrase that? The current formulation doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote:On the opposite side, if Osama is actually alive, how come he isn't trying to get a message send out to the media. If they were able to do such a thing, the backlash on the U.S. and the current party would be gigantic and really push against thedecisions being made.
I didn't make the claim that he is still alive. As I've said, without any evidence that he's been alive after the events of 2001, it is probable that he has already died of his disease years ago.

Quote:I suppose you could reconcile this if you did believe that he was the whole time working in part with the CIA in this or not involved at all other than the decoy for the US governments attack on their own building for private monetary gain and control. There grows a lot more loose ends when you try to actually justify some deeper ramifications.
Why are you even bringing this up when I have not even suggested that he has been working together with the CIA? All I am asking is why the government releases fake video messages from Osama Bin Laden, why it tolerates that fake evidence of Osama's death is being spread in the news all around the world and why it refuses to release any evidence to prove it's claim.
I never said you were asserting any of these assumptions. I'm pointing out this particular instances that could be occurring if Bin Laden were killed prior or still alive. Even when you aren't making any claim, it's still fair to actually question the ramifications and details of what makes sense in the alternative case.

Oppositional forces could prove he was dead prior or is still alive via the same exact types of sources you are questioning the lack of from the US. They could provide documentation of his death prior, photographs, videos, blood samples, or at the very least spend efforts spreading the message strongly. The benefits for their supposed side against US could be very beneficial if they could prove that.

The U.S. have no reason to go out on the limp to provide extra evidence to prove it. There is a limited benefit and it's been explained, but apparently denied by you or others, that it could have more risks than gain. People will still disbelief in good numbers, how many still oppose the information of the moon landing contrary to physical evidence? Making less people question the case does no good for the U.S... maybe it would give Obama a few hundred more votes, but any other reason seems lacking in purpose.

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10-07-2012, 08:32 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 08:14 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Vosur the fact that al queda claim the US killed bin laden is proof that the US did in fact kill him. Its not an argument from ignorance. Its a fact. They would not claim it as true and hand the US a victory when they know the US had no part in his death.
Why do I even take the time to adress all of your arguments if you're just going to adress one of mine anyway?

Whatever. Have you ever thought about the possiblity that being killed by the U.S. instead of, for example, dying by a disease, would make him a matyr and that they would therefore not say the contrary?

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10-07-2012, 09:16 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 08:32 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-07-2012 08:14 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Vosur the fact that al queda claim the US killed bin laden is proof that the US did in fact kill him. Its not an argument from ignorance. Its a fact. They would not claim it as true and hand the US a victory when they know the US had no part in his death.
Why do I even take the time to adress all of your arguments if you're just going to adress one of mine anyway?

Whatever. Have you ever thought about the possiblity that being killed by the U.S. instead of, for example, dying by a disease, would make him a matyr and that they would therefore not say the contrary?
That is quite possibly true... Although it still would be a MAJOR sting against the United States Government. Being able to expose the death of Bin Laden as false would be a big rallying cry for the movement to exclude the USA from the Middle Eastern area.

It's just possible they don't think that is possible to expose or worth it. They may not even have the unified cause that has been claimed by the government. I think it's fair to question yet I don't think it lines up as very likely.

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10-07-2012, 09:29 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That is quite possibly true... Although it still would be a MAJOR sting against the United States Government. Being able to expose the death of Bin Laden as false would be a big rallying cry for the movement to exclude the USA from the Middle Eastern area.

It's just possible they don't think that is possible to expose or worth it. They may not even have the unified cause that has been claimed by the government. I think it's fair to question yet I don't think it lines up as very likely.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...0A20110502
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/0...index.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...m-al-qaida
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indo...tyr/438800
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/o...1e48x.html

Doesn't seem like his matyr death wouldn't be outweighting the benefits of exposing a lie from the U.S. government.

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10-07-2012, 10:12 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 09:29 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(10-07-2012 09:16 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That is quite possibly true... Although it still would be a MAJOR sting against the United States Government. Being able to expose the death of Bin Laden as false would be a big rallying cry for the movement to exclude the USA from the Middle Eastern area.

It's just possible they don't think that is possible to expose or worth it. They may not even have the unified cause that has been claimed by the government. I think it's fair to question yet I don't think it lines up as very likely.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...0A20110502
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/0...index.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...m-al-qaida
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indo...tyr/438800
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/o...1e48x.html

Doesn't seem like his matyr death wouldn't be outweighting the benefits of exposing a lie from the U.S. government.
Exactly what point does any of those links prove? All of that is from the days immediately after his death; most of which is articles written by journalists just saying, Osama will be a big Martyr. The few quotes of worth in there were already from extremists saying he is a martyr and the line that he is, Al Qaeda's number one martyr... Which is beyond obvious since he was the leader.

That isn't any argument though, since all you did was post links to saying, people say Bin Laden is a martyr. In no way does that show what value his martyrdom actually has become over this year. If more attacks existed or numbers of notable members were noticeably rising it would be greatly significant. It may be happening and not demonstrable.

Yet if Al Qaeda's other leading members are still vastly against the western influence in the middle east, it can be mighty powerful to rally around clear lies of the USA. If they could prove that info to the world, why should it matter if Osama is less of a martyr. They could be closer to achieving their key goals by demonstrating the filthy western lies.

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10-07-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
So, the basic argument here is that not only is the US possibly involved in a conspiracy to claim they killed bin Ladin, but al queda is in on the conspiracy too.

You have to be bat-shit crazy to think that is true. Seriously, you need to be freebasing drano or something to come up with that. Ignoring the sheer lunacy of it, the idea that the US contacted al queda in advance to work out with them how this would be a win-win is just hilarious. The alternative to this is the Obama administration simply played high stakes poker here and said "hey, why don't we just say that we killed Obama and hope no one calls 'bull shit' on us down the road. Here are all the reasons we think al queda will go along with us so we think it's worth the risk".

At some point, you have to step out of the hot sun, put down the crack pipe, stop free basing the whatever it is you are free basing and ask yourself: does that story really make any fucking sense at all? Does it? Does it really seem logical that the Obama administration would make up a story so easily disproved, 2 years prior to an election, on the possibility that a bunch of lunatics may go along with it and not expose them as frauds and liars? I'm confident it does not.

Feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want, it's really no skin of my back. But, don't expect rational people to buy into this lunacy.

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10-07-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 01:18 PM)BnW Wrote:  So, the basic argument here is that not only is the US possibly involved in a conspiracy to claim they killed bin Ladin, but al queda is in on the conspiracy too.

You have to be bat-shit crazy to think that is true. Seriously, you need to be freebasing drano or something to come up with that. Ignoring the sheer lunacy of it, the idea that the US contacted al queda in advance to work out with them how this would be a win-win is just hilarious. The alternative to this is the Obama administration simply played high stakes poker here and said "hey, why don't we just say that we killed Obama and hope no one calls 'bull shit' on us down the road. Here are all the reasons we think al queda will go along with us so we think it's worth the risk".

At some point, you have to step out of the hot sun, put down the crack pipe, stop free basing the whatever it is you are free basing and ask yourself: does that story really make any fucking sense at all? Does it? Does it really seem logical that the Obama administration would make up a story so easily disproved, 2 years prior to an election, on the possibility that a bunch of lunatics may go along with it and not expose them as frauds and liars? I'm confident it does not.

Feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want, it's really no skin of my back. But, don't expect rational people to buy into this lunacy.
Strawman,bro.

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10-07-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Why is it that everyone likes that word? Imma now call every strong argument a "tinderbox".


(09-07-2012 04:19 PM)BnW Wrote:  Which part of my post was not totally correct? Let's simplify this: you are implying that the US government willingly and knowingly worked with a terrorist organization determined to wreak havoc on the US and its interests. That is absolutely not true. The US and the CIA did no such thing.

What they did do was aid and train a group to fight the USSR, and some of those people later turned out to be psychos that came after us as well, but that is not nearly the same as what you are implying.

I hate these innuendos and attempts to be clever. Your comment about the CIA had a clear implication to it. Back it up or admit you're wrong. Don't give me this bull shit, though, about how they helped a group in the early 1980s that later evolved into al queda after the USSR was out of Afghanistan. Yes that happened, but it is no big secret and that was never the intention, and you are clearly implying a willingness with your comments.

Tinderbox. Congrats, you have disproved my only conspiracy theory. xD

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11-07-2012, 04:32 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 01:18 PM)BnW Wrote:  So, the basic argument here is that not only is the US possibly involved in a conspiracy to claim they killed bin Ladin, but al queda is in on the conspiracy too.

You have to be bat-shit crazy to think that is true. Seriously, you need to be freebasing drano or something to come up with that. Ignoring the sheer lunacy of it, the idea that the US contacted al queda in advance to work out with them how this would be a win-win is just hilarious. The alternative to this is the Obama administration simply played high stakes poker here and said "hey, why don't we just say that we killed Obama and hope no one calls 'bull shit' on us down the road. Here are all the reasons we think al queda will go along with us so we think it's worth the risk".
Are you currently high/drunk/hallucinating? How can you come up with this bullshit when I haven't claimed any of it? Where have I claimed that the U.S. has been working together with Al'Qaida to make this work? Where have I claimed that it's a conspiracy? Where have I claimed that Al'Qaida is part of a conspiracy? Whatever drug you're currently on, please reread your post once you're sober.

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11-07-2012, 05:10 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 10:12 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Exactly what point does any of those links prove? All of that is from the days immediately after his death; most of which is articles written by journalists just saying, Osama will be a big Martyr. The few quotes of worth in there were already from extremists saying he is a martyr and the line that he is, Al Qaeda's number one martyr... Which is beyond obvious since he was the leader.

That isn't any argument though, since all you did was post links to saying, people say Bin Laden is a martyr. In no way does that show what value his martyrdom actually has become over this year. If more attacks existed or numbers of notable members were noticeably rising it would be greatly significant. It may be happening and not demonstrable.
It's true that these articles were published up to a few days after his death, however, here is, for example, an article from 2012 which claims that the leader of the Pakistani fundamentalist party Jamaat-e-Islami has called Osama Bin Laden a matyr (it's available on different websites if you wish to doubt the source). It's obvious that I will have a hard time proving the value of his matyrdom because the information I have access to is very limited (English websites).

All I wanted to say is that if Al'Qaida confirms he is dead, it's no proof that he's been killed by the U.S., as I've offered an alternative possibility of why they would confirm it. Granted, it is certainly evidence indicating that the story if true, but it's far from being a fact, as Scot likes to call his arguments. I'm not saying that this must be the case, but it's a valid possibility.

(10-07-2012 10:12 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yet if Al Qaeda's other leading members are still vastly against thewestern influence in the middle east, it can be mighty powerful to rally around clear lies of the USA. If they could prove that info to the world, why should it matter if Osama is less of a martyr. They could be closer to achieving their key goals by demonstrating the filthy western lies.
First of all, how can you be certain that they can prove the opposite? I'm not asking you to make assumptions, such as 'they know where he's buried' or 'they have taken pictures of his corpse', etc. since you have zero evidence for them. Second of all, what would be the point? Do you really think that exposing one lie of a western government would have a huge impact on anything? You're acting as though the U.S. have never lied in their entire history.

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