Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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11-07-2012, 05:50 AM (This post was last modified: 11-07-2012 06:13 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
I think it's time to sum up the opposing opinions for those who are too lazy to read everything.

I'm skeptical because
#1 no photographs, DNA test results or anything else considered physical evidence has been released by the U.S. government or anyone else for that matter
#2 Al'Qaida could have confirmed that Osama has been killed by foreigners so that he becomes a martyr
#3 he was supposedly buried at sea which is against the muslim tradition
#4 the reasoning behind not releasing the photographs has several flaws

You're not skeptical because
#1 the photographs weren't released since that would sting up the anger of fundamentalists and the DNA test results were not released because they wouldn't prove anything
#2 he was buried at sea so that his grave wouldn't become a shrine for fundamentalists
#3 if Al'Qaida confirms that he's been killed by the U.S., there is not a single doubt that he is dead

Did I forget anything?

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11-07-2012, 06:15 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
While you have summed this perfectly, the result is still 4:3 for the skeptical side.

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11-07-2012, 06:17 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 06:15 AM)Filox Wrote:  While you have summed this perfectly, the result is still 4:3 for the skeptical side.

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11-07-2012, 07:17 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(10-07-2012 03:37 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(10-07-2012 01:18 PM)BnW Wrote:  So, the basic argument here is that not only is the US possibly involved in a conspiracy to claim they killed bin Ladin, but al queda is in on the conspiracy too.

You have to be bat-shit crazy to think that is true. Seriously, you need to be freebasing drano or something to come up with that. Ignoring the sheer lunacy of it, the idea that the US contacted al queda in advance to work out with them how this would be a win-win is just hilarious. The alternative to this is the Obama administration simply played high stakes poker here and said "hey, why don't we just say that we killed Obama and hope no one calls 'bull shit' on us down the road. Here are all the reasons we think al queda will go along with us so we think it's worth the risk".

At some point, you have to step out of the hot sun, put down the crack pipe, stop free basing the whatever it is you are free basing and ask yourself: does that story really make any fucking sense at all? Does it? Does it really seem logical that the Obama administration would make up a story so easily disproved, 2 years prior to an election, on the possibility that a bunch of lunatics may go along with it and not expose them as frauds and liars? I'm confident it does not.

Feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want, it's really no skin of my back. But, don't expect rational people to buy into this lunacy.
Strawman,bro.
One of us has no idea what the term "strawman" means. I'm fairly confident that it's you.

Vosur - on your "not skeptical" list, you forgot to add "it doesn't make any fucking sense".

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11-07-2012, 07:45 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 07:17 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(10-07-2012 03:37 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Strawman,bro.
One of us has no idea what the term "strawman" means. I'm fairly confident that it's you.

Vosur - on your "not skeptical" list, you forgot to add "it doesn't make any fucking sense".
Uhh, yeah I know what a strawman is. You said that he claimed Al Qeada was in on the conspiracy, which is not at all what he said. So, strawman.

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11-07-2012, 10:07 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
No, I said his argument about why al queda did not "out" us on whether we killed bin ladin resulted in 1 of 2 possibilities, which are:
1. we conspired with them in advance; or
2. we just took a big gamble that they would go along with this and played some serious poker.

Those are the only two conclusions you can draw from his statements. That's not a strawman, it's simple logic. And, neither one of those options seems very likely, or logical.

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11-07-2012, 10:18 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 10:07 AM)BnW Wrote:  No, I said his argument about why al queda did not "out" us on whether we killed bin ladin resulted in 1 of 2 possibilities, which are:
1. we conspired with them in advance; or
2. we just took a big gamble that they would go along with this and played some serious poker.

Those are the only two conclusions you can draw from his statements. That's not a strawman, it's simple logic. And, neither one of those options seems very likely, or logical.
The second option implies that they would be able to prove that he has been dead all along.

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11-07-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Not necessarily. For al queda, being contrary has value in and of itself. There are Muslims who are going to believe what they say, or not believe what the US says, just on general principle. The same way there are Americans who continue to hold on to the bullshit argument that Obama was born in Kenya. Some people just want to believe.

However, whether or not al queda could actually prove it as really not the point. For the US to go out on a limb and claim they killed him when they didn't would be a big risk. What if the loonies could prove he died a few years ago? What if they produced a body, a grave site and some DNA? Once you make up a lie, you have no idea where the truth is going to come from. The only logical conclusions from your assumption have to be that the US either conspired with al queda in advance or came to some conclusion that this completely unpredictable organization who absolutely fucking hates them would do something predictable so as not to embarrass Obama. If he got caught in this lie, his chances of reelection would be about zilch.

Neither of those options seem very realistic to me. Al queda is not conspiring with us and Obama, no matter what else he may be, is not a moron.

Like I said before: you are free to believe what ever it is you want to believe, but don't expect rational people to take it seriously.

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11-07-2012, 10:58 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 10:52 AM)BnW Wrote:  Not necessarily. For al queda, being contrary has value in and of itself. There are Muslims who are going to believe what they say, or not believe what the US says, just on general principle. The same way there are Americans who continue to hold on to the bullshit argument that Obama was born in Kenya. Some people just want to believe.

However, whether or not al queda could actually prove it as really not the point. For the US to go out on a limb and claim they killed him when they didn't would be a big risk. What if the loonies could prove he died a few years ago? What if they produced a body, a grave site and some DNA? Once you make up a lie, you have no idea where the truth is going to come from. The only logical conclusions from your assumption have to be that the US either conspired with al queda in advance or came to some conclusion that this completely unpredictable organization who absolutely fucking hates them would do something predictable so as not to embarrass Obama. If he got caught in this lie, his chances of reelection would be about zilch.

Neither of those options seem very realistic to me. Al queda is not conspiring with us and Obama, no matter what else he may be, is not a moron.

Like I said before: you are free to believe what ever it is you want to believe, but don't expect rational people to take it seriously.
You should inform yourself about the process of decay of the human body. You'd be surprised how little time it takes for only bones and hair to be remaining, even if that human is buried in a coffin. And how could they possibly prove it by using DNA test results when the DNA test results of the latest test from the U.S. are not valid evidence (according to FSM_Scot)?

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11-07-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
This is really nuts. Have you actually stepped out of the sun and given any thought to the number of things that had to happen for this "conspiracy" to be pulled off? Again, whether or not al queda could provide a body or proof is irrelevant. You are basically saying that the US announced that they killed this guy but did not do so. That means, again, they either a) agreed with al queda up front not to say something or b) just took a huge gamble and risked Obama's presidency and reelection. There is no escaping those two conclusions. If they really did not kill him, then they either did a or b. The amount of things you are stretching for in order for b to happen is just incredible. Is is possible they gambled on all of these things and all of them panned out in their favor? Sure, it's possible. The probability is worse than hitting the lottery twice in one day while being struck by lightening but it's possible.

At some point, when you have to string all these incredible things together in order to build a story, does it occur to you that maybe, holy shit!, this just doesn't make any sense? Like I said, believe whatever you want to believe, it makes no difference to me. But, when you have to stretch this way you look like a fool.

As for decomposition, funny story on that. The University of Tennessee has a "body farm" where they study human decomposition as part of their forensic science program (I know this because I want to be shipped there when I'm dead but that's a different issue). Anyway, the way the program got started and funded was some construction workers unearthed a body and called the cops. The coroner did an autopsy and concluded the guy was dead a few months and was a murder victim as he died from a gunshot wound and an investigation ensued. Turns out the guy's killer was the Union Army and he was a confederate soldier who did during the American Civil War over 100 years earlier. Decomposition depends on a lot of factors. But, this is still not the point. whether or not al queda could produce a body is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you are suggesting that Obama gambled with his presidency that he was dead, that they could not produce proof AND that they would go along with the official story.

Seriously, how likely was that?

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