Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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11-07-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
This topic is cracking me up.

You guys are just gonna have to trust me when I say that it went down exactly the way the government says it did. lol
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11-07-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 01:29 PM)BnW Wrote:  This is really nuts. Have you actually stepped out of the sun and given any thought to the number of things that had to happen for this "conspiracy" to be pulled off? Again, whether or not al queda could provide a body or proof is irrelevant. You are basically saying that the US announced that they killed this guy but did not do so. That means, again, they either a) agreed with al queda up front not to say something or b) just took a huge gamble and risked Obama's presidency and reelection. There is no escaping those two conclusions. If they really did not kill him, then they either did a or b. The amount of things you are stretching for in order for b to happen is just incredible. Is is possible they gambled on all of these things and all of them panned out in their favor? Sure, it's possible. The probability is worse than hitting the lottery twice in one day while being struck by lightening but it's possible.

At some point, when you have to string all these incredible things together in order to build a story, does it occur to you that maybe, holy shit!, this just doesn't make any sense? Like I said, believe whatever you want to believe, it makes no difference to me. But, when you have to stretch this way you look like a fool.

As for decomposition, funny story on that. The University of Tennessee has a "body farm" where they study human decomposition as part of their forensic science program (I know this because I want to be shipped there when I'm dead but that's a different issue). Anyway, the way the program got started and funded was some construction workers unearthed a body and called the cops. The coroner did an autopsy and concluded the guy was dead a few months and was a murder victim as he died from a gunshot wound and an investigation ensued. Turns out the guy's killer was the Union Army and he was a confederate soldier who did during the American Civil War over 100 years earlier. Decomposition depends on a lot of factors. But, this is still not the point. whether or not al queda could produce a body is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that you are suggesting that Obama gambled with his presidency that he was dead, that they could not produce proof AND that they would go along with the official story.

Seriously, how likely was that?
You still don't get it, do you? Being skeptical and being convinced of something are two entirely different things. I'm giving you reasons as to why it couldn't have happened as it has been claimed by the U.S. government, you are giving me reasons why it could have happened exactly the way they describe it. Neither of us has sufficient proof to convince someone of either side. Sure, both of us have evidence indicating that one or the other is true, but it takes a leap of faith to actually believe that one of them is true.

As for the actual argument, it is actually more than relevant whether or not they can provide proof for it. That's what your entire argument is based upon. How can it be a huge gamble if they can be sure that there's no evidence to disprove their claim? And I've also named a possibility as to why it would be beneficial for them to go along with the official story rather than claiming the opposite with no proof, which is that his death would become that of a martyr.

I don't know how many times I have to point this out until you get it, but I'm not convinced of either of the stories. It's similar to agnosticism. The default position is to be skeptical, which is why you can neither exclude the possiblity that God exists, nor can you be convinced that God exists. If God would reveal himself, I could no longer be Agnostic. Just like I could no longer be skeptical about this story if the government would release a valid photograph. And I'm not a conspiracy nut that would insist on the image being faked if there was no evidence for this claim, otherwise I would believe that the photographs of the Holocaust, the moon landing, the videos of 9/11, etc. would be fake, which I do not.

The point is that unlike the "conspiracies" named above, there actually is no physical evidence for this one. There are no photographs, no video tapes, no bodies, no graves, nothing! Absolutely nothing. To be convinced that it happened either way, you have to base that position on assumptions and predictions that could be false. In the end, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

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11-07-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Quote:The point is that unlike the "conspiracies" named above, there actually is no physical evidence for this one. There are no photographs, no video tapes, no bodies, no graves, nothing!

Yeah. There is. That doesn't mean that you're privvy to seeing it. Wink
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11-07-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
I understood your position the whole time. I still think it's nuts. At some point, things are just what they seem to be. Whether or not you believe that the US killed bin ladin, or have no position on it at all and decide just to be skeptical doesn't change the underlying facts and consequences. There is no real reason to claim you killed him if you didn't. They provided plenty of details of wht they got from his hideout. you want to claim that the lack of a body means there is no proof and you are skeptical, that's fine. You can do that. It doesn't change any of the actual underlying facts or consequences, though.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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11-07-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 02:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  I understood your position the whole time. I still think it's nuts. At some point, things are just what they seem to be. Whether or not you believe that the US killed bin ladin, or have no position on it at all and decide just to be skeptical doesn't change the underlying facts and consequences. There is no real reason to claim you killed him if you didn't. They provided plenty of details of wht they got from his hideout. you want to claim that the lack of a body means there is no proof and you are skeptical, that's fine. You can do that. It doesn't change any of the actual underlying facts or consequences, though.
I can live with that position.

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11-07-2012, 02:32 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 02:16 PM)StatiK Wrote:  
Quote:The point is that unlike the "conspiracies" named above, there actually is no physical evidence for this one. There are no photographs, no video tapes, no bodies, no graves, nothing!

Yeah. There is. That doesn't mean that you're privvy to seeing it. Wink
I should have phrased it differently.

i.e. Unlike the "conspiracies" named above, there actually was no physical evidence released for this one.

The result is the same though. By using that logic you could believe in God by claiming that there is proof for him but nobody is privy to seeing it.

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11-07-2012, 02:39 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 02:32 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-07-2012 02:16 PM)StatiK Wrote:  Yeah. There is. That doesn't mean that you're privvy to seeing it. Wink
I should have phrased it differently.

i.e. Unlike the "conspiracies" named above, there actually was no physical evidence released for this one.


Unfortunately that's just the way that things go with classified military operations. JSOC uses weapons and equipment that people don't know exists, even entry and egress points can tip the government's hand about human intelligence sources. The bottom line is that: They don't owe anyone anything. It's enough that a known terrorist mastermind was brought down and the world is a better place for it.
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11-07-2012, 02:42 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 02:39 PM)StatiK Wrote:  The bottom line is that: They don't owe anyone anything. It's enough that a known terrorist mastermind was brought down and the world is a better place for it.
FSM_Scot said something similar earlier in this thread. If they would share your position, then why did they consider releasing evidence for it? The majority believed the story anyway, which is why there was no reason for them to prove it. The American population was cheering after hearing that Osama was dead, they threw partys and were joyful, there was no sign of doubt coming from the vast masses.

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11-07-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Quote:then why did they consider releasing evidence for it?

My honest best guess is because Obama is still hearing shit about birth certificates. Wink It probably had more to do with votes than it did about anything else, but I can only speculate.
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11-07-2012, 02:47 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(11-07-2012 02:44 PM)StatiK Wrote:  
Quote:then why did they consider releasing evidence for it?

My honest best guess is because Obama is still hearing shit about birth certificates. Wink It probably had more to do with votes than it did about anything else, but I can only speculate.
Birth certificates? Huh

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