Evidence presented by the U.S. government
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02-07-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(02-07-2012 07:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Ah, I see. He's already dead, so let's take advantage of this and claim we killed him.
OK, it's not the silliest conspiracy theory extant. What it has going for it is that there is a reasonable motivation and a manageably small group of conspirators.
It surprises me that you're so unskeptical about the whole story. Shouldn't you demand evidence for the government's claim? After all, they have the burden of proof. There are several reasons to be more than just skeptical.

#1. The fake photo which they didn't admit was fake until it has been debunked.
#2. The lack of real photos and the government's unwillingness to release the supposedly real ones.
#3. "Oh, we buried his corpse at an unknown place in the sea, so we can't prove it to you."
#4. "We confirmed his identity with a DNA test within a few hours, although DNA tests take up to several days."
#5. Video messsages from Osama Bin Laden after 2001 which turned out to be fake.
#6. The killing of Osama Bin Laden had a great impact on Obama's popularity.

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02-07-2012, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 08:23 AM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
As far as I remember the US never claimed that photo was real. It surfaced on the Internet about the time of the raid but from what I remember the US said they had no plans to release the photo.

not releasing it was a smart move. You just need to see the retaliation attacks that take place after any dead Muslims killed by the US make it to the news.

Burying him at sea to stop his grave becoming a shrine makes sense if you think about it. He's already a hero to extremists. A marked grave would have served as inspiration to extremists.

As for the speed of the DNA test. The military has access to resources better than the police forensics can get (faster more powerful computers and better equipment) So you could identify someone from their DNA within hours. The reason it takes weeks for the police to get DNA results is due to there being a long waiting list.
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02-07-2012, 08:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 08:36 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(02-07-2012 08:17 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  As far as I remember the US never claimed that photo was real. It surfaced on the Internet about the time of the raid but from what I remember the US said they had no plans to release the photo.
It is true that the government never said the photo was real, hence my statement that they didn't say it was fake even though they knew it was. The thing is, the image was in the newspapers all around the world and they didn't say a peep.

Quote:not releasing it was a smart move. You just need to see the retaliation attacks that take place after any dead Muslims killed by the US make it to the news.
Do you have any sources for massive retaliation attacks after the release of the fake photo? People all around the world thought it was real until it was debunked.

Quote:Burying him at sea to stop his grave becoming a shrine makes sense if you think about it. He's already a hero to extremists. A marked grave would have served as inspiration to extremists.
They could've buried the body at an unknown place on dry land as well.

Quote:As for the speed of the DNA test. The military has access to resources better than the police forensics can get (faster more powerful computers and better equipment) So you could identify someone from their DNA within hours. The reason it takes weeks for the police to get DNA results is due to there being a long waiting list.
Do you have a source for the claim that it's possible to do it within hours?

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02-07-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
I will say BS to superior computers used by military. Maybe in some secret base, but the laptops and regular computers they use in the field are just that. Computers. Do you really think that USA military stationed in Afghanistan has some super secret quantum computer, or do they use regular i7 processor? Maybe even Extreme version of it, but is still a processor that I can have in my home. Nothing special there.

I also had a chance to see and work with some of the military laptops. They were actually slower than regular computers from that era, but what they did have was the superior magnesium-aluminum casing. It was very protected against damage, shocks and water, but normal parts were used inside.

I expect to see some attack on this statement, so let me elaborate it further. If they have something you can't buy in a shop, do you think they will carry it around, so that it may fall into enemy hands? Or any other hands, industrial spies, anybody? Please. Innovative things are kept secret, in a vault, not on the field.

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02-07-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(02-07-2012 08:32 AM)Vosur Wrote:  It is true that the government never said the photo was real, hence my statement that they didn't say it was fake even though they knew it was. The thing is, the image was in the newspapers all around the world and they didn't say a peep.
Why would they need to say its fake right away? They said they wouldn't release the photo. The fact it was printed in any paper shows bad journalism. It took a few second of googling when i first saw it to find out it was a fake.

(02-07-2012 08:32 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you have any sources for massive retaliation attacks after the release of the fake photo? People all around the world thought it was real until it was debunked.
Watch the news. anytime an AL Qaeda commander or someone in power is killed they swear revenge. Its usually a suicide bombing. Or even the fake torture photo made by British soldiers which turned out to be a hoax. Threats of retaliation where made over a fake picture.

(02-07-2012 08:32 AM)Vosur Wrote:  They could've buried the body at an unknown place on dry land as well.
Im not sure but cremation may not be a way Muslims dispose of bodies? if it isn't then obviously it would create a backlash. True but its more likely to be found on land.

(02-07-2012 08:32 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you have a source for the claim that it's possible to do it within hours?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...122715.htm and here
Quote:In routine practice, a commercial lab that is handling thousands of DNA samples develops a DNA profile from a given sample in a month or so, said Mark Stolorow, executive director of Orchid Cellmark forensic DNA labs, located in Germantown, Maryland, and elsewhere.
Focusing on just a single sample, such a lab could probably do the job in something under 24 hours, and a lab that has long been preparing to identify a particular person like Saddam could probably do it even faster, he said.
(old article, meaning the speed will be faster now).
As i said the military has access to technologys more advanced than is available anywhere else. With the power the computers that the military have matching dna with someone whos dna they already know shouldn't be a problem.
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02-07-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Yes there is holes in lots of ideas and these are all concrete holes that can be looked into... But you have no evidence on the side of the contrary. You can question it but just as the same with God, there isn't any legitimate evidence to say this or that about him.

You have to think about how much power this could give the oppositional forces if this info was not true. If he had died before, how come other fellow operatives of his and Al Quida that don't want the US aiding Israel or in Afghanistan trying to get the message out after a year now that the U.S. entirely fabricating the story. On the opposite side, if Osama is actually alive, how come he isn't trying to get a message send out to the media. If they were able to do such a thing, the backlash on the U.S. and the current party would be gigantic and really push against the decisions being made.

I suppose you could reconcile this if you did believe that he was the whole time working in part with the CIA in this or not involved at all other than the decoy for the US governments attack on their own building for private monetary gain and control. There grows a lot more loose ends when you try to actually justify some deeper ramifications.

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03-07-2012, 05:02 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 05:23 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
(02-07-2012 10:54 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Why would they need to say its fake right away? They said they wouldn't release the photo. The fact it was printed in any paper shows bad journalism. It took a few second of googling when i first saw it to find out it was a fake.
They should have said that it's fake so that everyone would know that it's fake (duh). The fact that they said they are not going to release it doesn't exclude the possibility that this image could've been a leaked one. It happened before, remember the helicopter video from WikiLeaks or the video where soldiers urinate on the corpses of the opposing forces or the recent photographs showing soldiers posing in front of suicide bombers?

Quote:Watch the news. anytime an AL Qaeda commander or someone in power is killed they swear revenge. Its usually a suicide bombing. Or even the fake torture photo made by British soldiers which turned out to be a hoax. Threats of retaliation where made over a fake picture.
Which news am I supposed to watch, Fox News? Anyway, if there was no reaction from the Talibans upon the release of the fake photo, which was considered to be real at first, then why would there be an outrage over the real one? And even if they did react with violence, the positive effects of the release far outweight the negative ones. There wouldn't be a single skeptic if the photograph turned out to be real.

Quote:Im not sure but cremation may not be a way Muslims dispose of bodies? if it isn't then obviously it would create a backlash. True but its more likely to be found on land.
Strawman. I wasn't talking about cremation. Why would anyone be able to find it if the location is unknown? It's not like people go around digging 6ft deep holes at random places and find his corpse by chance. The probability is extremely low and the more time goes by, the lower the chance of finding an actual body is.

Quote:As I said the military has access to technologys more advanced than is available anywhere else. With the power the computers that the military have matching dna with someone whos dna they already know shouldn't be a problem.
It seems like my former wording was misleading. I was talking about evidence that these troops had the required equipment to do so, of course it's possible in a stationary high-tech lab with access to all kind of ressources. Also refer to the other post adressing this problem.

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Quote:Yes there is holes in lots of ideas and these are all concrete holes that can be looked into... But you have no evidence on the side of the contrary. You can question it but just as the same with God, there isn't any legitimate evidence to say this or that about him.
Strawman. I didn't claim that I have evidence of the contrary, but I am not making the claim after all, so it doesn't matter anyway. In one of his announcments, Obama claimed that U.S. troops have killed Osama Bin Laden. He is making the claim, therefore he has the burden of proof. The government has yet to release any evidence suggesting that what he said is true.

Quote:You have to think about how much power this could give the oppositional forces ifthis info was not true. If he had died before, how come other fellow operatives of his and Al Quida that don't want the US aiding Israel or in Afghanistan trying to get the message out after a year now that the U.S. entirely fabricating the story.
How are the opposotional forces supposed to disprove the claim that they've killed him? As for the second one, can you rephrase that? The current formulation doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote:On the opposite side, if Osama is actually alive, how come he isn't trying to get a message send out to the media. If they were able to do such a thing, the backlash on the U.S. and the current party would be gigantic and really push against thedecisions being made.
I didn't make the claim that he is still alive. As I've said, without any evidence that he's been alive after the events of 2001, it is probable that he has already died of his disease years ago.

Quote:I suppose you could reconcile this if you did believe that he was the whole time working in part with the CIA in this or not involved at all other than the decoy for the US governments attack on their own building for private monetary gain and control. There grows a lot more loose ends when you try to actually justify some deeper ramifications.
Why are you even bringing this up when I have not even suggested that he has been working together with the CIA? All I am asking is why the government releases fake video messages from Osama Bin Laden, why it tolerates that fake evidence of Osama's death is being spread in the news all around the world and why it refuses to release any evidence to prove it's claim.

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03-07-2012, 05:43 AM
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
About the dna all you need to collect dna is a cotton swab. So i don't know whag you mean when you say about the troops and their equipment?. but they took the body so they could have done any tests they wanted and flown it to a lab with the equipment to match dna. So the argument about dna taking to long is a weak one.

The whole point about not realeasing the photo and disposing of the body was about keeping with muslim tradition dealing with the dead. And not stiring up any anger about his death.

Do you have any evidence that they dragged their heels over the photo being a fake?
What benefit? Shutting conspiricy theorists up? Hardly worth the effort.

Hell the picture had been released and debunked pretty fast. No government in the world is fast enough to make a statement before that was debunked.

You've made many weak claims and have questioned mine. But you havent provided any evidence for your argument. Any chance you could provide sources that don't come from conspiricy therosts?
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03-07-2012, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 06:25 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Alright, time to take this seriously.

(03-07-2012 05:43 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  About the dna all you need to collect dna is a cotton swab. So i don't know whag you mean when you say about the troops and their equipment?. but they took the body so they could have done any tests they wanted and flown it to a lab with the equipment to match dna. So the argument about dna taking to long is a weak one.
For the sake of the argument, I'll assume that they would've been able to do the test within the given timeframe. Even then the fact remains that they did not provide any evidence that they even made this DNA test, you are taking the government's word as fact, even though it certainly isn't.

(03-07-2012 05:43 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  The whole point about not realeasing the photo and disposing of the body was about keeping with muslim tradition dealing with the dead. And not stiring up any anger about his death.
Get your facts straight. Burying the dead in the sea is very unsual in the islamic tradition.

Quote:In terms of the basic requirements for Muslim burials, standard practice involves placing the body in a grave with the head pointed toward the holy city of Mecca. Burial at sea is rare in Islam, though Muslim websites say it is permitted in certain circumstances. One is during a long voyage where the body may decompose and pose a health hazard to a ship's passengers, an exception noted on Monday by Tunisian scholar Ahmed al-Gharbi. Another is if there is a risk of enemies digging up a and grave and exhuming or mutilating the body.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may...-bin-laden

(03-07-2012 05:43 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Do you have any evidence that they dragged their heels over the photo being a fake?

What benefit? Shutting conspiricy theorists up? Hardly worth the effort.
I've finally done a bit more research and as it turns out, the government said that they're not going to release the real image after the one circulating in the Internet turned out to be fake.

May 03, 2011: The fake image is debunked
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/world...s=PM:WORLD

May 04, 2011: Obama makes the announcement that the real photo is not going to be released
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...7920110504

(03-07-2012 05:43 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  Hell the picture had been released and debunked pretty fast. No government in the world is fast enough to make a statement before that was debunked.
See above.

(03-07-2012 05:43 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  You've made many weak claims and have questioned mine. But you havent provided any evidence for your argument. Any chance you could provide sources that don't come from conspiricy therosts?
You seem to confuse something here. It is literally impossible for me to disprove that they've killed him with the given information. All I do is criticize that they have yet to bring forth just one shred of evidence that what they say is true. You are the one supporting the claim that Osama Bin Laden was killed by U.S. forces, you have to deliver the proof.

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03-07-2012, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 07:04 AM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Evidence presented by the U.S. government
Sorry if somebody already mentioned it, but there were threats from Al Queda to the USA because they killed Osama Bin Laden... Of course, The government WILL NOT confirm nor deny the statements Al Queda seems to have made. Take it anyway you want, links:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/0...7920110506

http://www.examiner.com/article/al-qaeda...eath-video

I recommend you research and see if everything checks out, I am intersted in the truth.

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