Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
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29-05-2014, 08:31 AM
Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
If you're a glutton for punishment and want to hear how terrible Libertarianism sounds even coming from a college professor, here is one debating with Sam Seder for almost an hour. No, it doesn't sound any better than when Luminon or frankksj spout this nonsense.






Some highlights include...

1 - Complete naivete that ignores the reality of how people with power can and will abuse it for their own gain (economic or otherwise).

2 - Complete disregard for facts when it does not agree with the pet theory.

3 - Grasping at inapplicable examples from centuries ago in an attempt to argue against when is happening in the world right now.

4 - Making up numbers and figures on the spot, which even then fail to demonstrate the point trying to be made.

5 - Reliance on vague 'axioms' instead of empirical evidence.

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29-05-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
I can't see the video (because I'm at work) but Economic liberalism (free trade and loosening of regulations) has been empirically responsible for lifting millions of people out of poverty in India and China in the last 20-30 years as many economists have pointed out.

Lots of empirical evidence has been proposed by economists like Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, Frank Knight and George Stigler among others of the benefits of a free market system. They wont go as far as Luminon to say that the state should be abolished, and admit the free market has its few limtations, but in general its more effective, productive and benefitial than a centralized bureaucratic economic system.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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29-05-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(29-05-2014 08:44 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  I can't see the video (because I'm at work) but Economic liberalism (free trade and loosening of regulations) has been empirically responsible for lifting millions of people out of poverty in India and China in the last 20-30 years as many economists have pointed out.

Lots of empirical evidence has been proposed by economists like Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, Frank Knight and George Stigler among others of the benefits of a free market system. They wont go as far as Luminon to say that the state should be abolished, and admit the free market has its few limtations, but in general its more effective, productive and benefitial than a centralized bureaucratic economic system.

This professor argues against raising the minimum wage because then businesses will fire people en masse; even though we haven't seen that ever play out in the states that have raised their wages above the federal level, and we have studies to show that it will get more money into the hands of those who will spend it immediately and help drive the economy by creating demand (as opposed to a banker just sitting on a pile of cash not doing shit with it).

There are always advantages and disadvantages to everything, but this professor is such a dyed in the wool Libertarian that he's way the fuck over in Luminon/frankksj territory with his ability to conveniently deny reality to suit his preferred conclusion. To be clear, he's arguing for complete laissez-faire, the Libertarian wet-dream.

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29-05-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(29-05-2014 08:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This professor argues against raising the minimum wage because then businesses will fire people en masse; even though we haven't seen that ever play out in the states that have raised their wages above the federal level, and we have studies to show that it will get more money into the hands of those who will spend it immediately and help drive the economy by creating demand (as opposed to a banker just sitting on a pile of cash not doing shit with it).

There are always advantages and disadvantages to everything, but this professor is such a dyed in the wool Libertarian that he's way the fuck over in Luminon/frankksj territory with his ability to conveniently deny reality to suit his preferred conclusion. To be clear, he's arguing for complete laissez-faire, the Libertarian wet-dream.

Economically speaking raising the minimum wage is a mixed bag. The benefits go towards those currently employed by synthetically raising their wage automatically. The negative consequences fall particularly on low or unskilled minorities not employed and looking for employment. It was actually historically used in the Jim Crow south to dissuade employers particularly in construction from hiring black workers at a time where the black unemployment was actually lower than that of whites in the south.

Put yourself in the shoes of the employer. Labor is across the board the highest expense in a company's books. If you had to artificially pay more per employer to keep your business afloat you have options to increase prices on your customers, automize and reduce staff. However among these business have a higher incentive to lower staff as opposed to raising prices in order to stay competitive.

It's true that a small minimum wage raise has little negative effects right away, but the unseen consequences can take months or years to show up. It's just not a quick fix.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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29-05-2014, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2014 10:54 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(29-05-2014 09:10 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  Put yourself in the shoes of the employer. Labor is across the board the highest expense in a company's books. If you had to artificially pay more per employer to keep your business afloat you have options to increase prices on your customers, automize and reduce staff. However among these business have a higher incentive to lower staff as opposed to raising prices in order to stay competitive.

If you need X amount of people to do Y job, even if you have to pay them more, you still need X amount of people. If you raise the minimum wage for McDonalds workers, the restaurant doesn't magically stop needing a full staff at lunch and dinner to meet the demands of it's customers.

Automation has already increased the productivity of workers many times over, but this increase in productivity has not been reflected in increased wages. Employees can now do more work than ever before, but their pay does not reflect the fact that they can now do by themselves what might have taken multiple workers to do only decades before.

Also keeping the wages low won't stop people from being replaced from automation entirely in some instances. For example, we no longer have a person that operates an elevator for us. But that job was created by the invention of the elevator, and made obsolete by the invention of better ones. Paying the elevator operator less would not have prevented his eventual replacement.

Even now the minimum wage has failed miserably to keep up with inflation, as the minimum needed now to match the buying power of the late 70's would require it to be raised to about $10.50 an hour.

But why are American CEO's worth hundreds of times more than their average workers, but the ones in Britain are only worth 25 times more? Or 13 times more as in Sweden? Or the 11 of Germany? Or the 10 of Japan? These companies are making massive profits, they can certainly afford to pay their workers more and stay competitive. Now if only one company paid their worker's more, that might put them at a competitive disadvantage. But with the government mandating that everyone must increase their base pay, it helps keep things level. All boats rise with the tide.


(29-05-2014 09:10 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  It's true that a small minimum wage raise has little negative effects right away, but the unseen consequences can take months or years to show up. It's just not a quick fix.

You're right, but heaven forbid we try to do something to make sure that people who work 40 hours a week can afford food, shelter, and health insurance. I say that we should, as a whole society, be concerned for those of us who have the least; and that's it's in all of our best interests to look out for and take care of one another. At least to me the Libertarian view seems to be, "If you're not lucky enough, fuck you". That's not to say there aren't other options out there to fix this problem, like the near universal unionization of workers employed in Switzerland that lets them manage without an enforced minimum wage; something frankksj the fraud conveniently forgot to mention in his diatribes.

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29-05-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
If you pay peanuts you get monkees.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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29-05-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(29-05-2014 10:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You're right, but heaven forbid we try to do something to make sure that people who work 40 hours a week can afford food, shelter, and health insurance. I say that we should, as a whole society, be concerned for those of us who have the least; and that's it's in all of our best interests to look out for and take care of one another. At least to me the Libertarian view seems to be, "If you're not lucky enough, fuck you". That's not to say there aren't other options out there to fix this problem, like the near universal unionization of workers employed in Switzerland that lets them manage without an enforced minimum wage; something frankksj the fraud conveniently forgot to mention in his diatribes.

I see. Libertarians can come across as sociopathic, that is true, though in principle they are more in touch with Economics than the average socialist or fabianist.

I do wish all libertarians were like Milton Friedman was. Empirically argued for free trade and the free market, but realistically offered better alternatives to the unfortunate people caught in Welfare like the Negative Income Tax.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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29-05-2014, 11:26 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(29-05-2014 11:19 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 10:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You're right, but heaven forbid we try to do something to make sure that people who work 40 hours a week can afford food, shelter, and health insurance. I say that we should, as a whole society, be concerned for those of us who have the least; and that's it's in all of our best interests to look out for and take care of one another. At least to me the Libertarian view seems to be, "If you're not lucky enough, fuck you". That's not to say there aren't other options out there to fix this problem, like the near universal unionization of workers employed in Switzerland that lets them manage without an enforced minimum wage; something frankksj the fraud conveniently forgot to mention in his diatribes.

I see. Libertarians can come across as sociopathic, that is true, though in principle they are more in touch with Economics than the average socialist or fabianist.

I do wish all libertarians were like Milton Friedman was. Empirically argued for free trade and the free market, but realistically offered better alternatives to the unfortunate people caught in Welfare like the Negative Income Tax.

I have found it to be the exact opposite. Nearly universal self centeredness is the hallmark of the libertarian view. Libertarian economics are based on systems that will never be again and the principles are unsound. The most common complaint from the Libertarian group is bitching about paying into a system that they have used (and in many cases exploited) their entire lives.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-05-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
I generally stay out of minimum wage discussions because honestly I'm on the fence. Of course people should be able to earn a livable wage -- but to what end?

On the rare occassion we do go to McDonald's it costs us here around $30 bucks for 4 people, $10 more and we can eat at a far better place. What is really telling, are the employees. When I was in high school fast food employees were almost always high school kids with a manager who was in their 20s. Today, most of the workers are far older it's the manager's career.

Most of the parents of high school age kids we know, all agree there aren't as many work opportunities for their kids today. it's hard to find a job without work experience somewhere -- many of our friend's kids have never worked -- because they just can't find a job -- it's not because they're too picky.

Even the bagger's at the grocery store are older people (if they have them at all since most have been eliminated).

Then you have insane job requirements...like a Masters degree in education to teach kindergarten or in some cases even preschool depending on the school (academy). Or a Master's degree to be a librarian -- the pay is meh. By the time you retire you might have your student loans paid off. At least with teaching, after 10 years there's a program to forgive the rest of your student loans but not for everyone else.

We have a friend who is a doctor, he still has 100k in student loans and he's been practicing medicine for around 15 years.

This is just my 2 cents on a very complex issue that runs deep.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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29-05-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
Ok. So I have a question. It has to do with brothels, gays and "slavery."
So one guy is saying that a person should be able to refuse business with another for whatever reason. The other guy disagrees. It's a pretty simple argument.
(I'm not sure there's a problem with putting up a sign that says "we reserve the right to refuse business." I see it in lots of places.)
If I were selling myself in a brothel should I be forced to engage in gay sex if a costumer demands my service or should I have the right to refuse?
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