Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
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30-05-2014, 07:59 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 12:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  His name is Richard Wolff, he's an economic professor and very critical of capitalism. Among the points he raises is the lack of democracy within capitalism, the failure of the United States ability to regulate it, the change in the labor market that started in the 70's, and the failure of an economic system that creates massive wealth inequality and a failure to utilize capacity. He also gives a great history lesson, showing why capitalism did work and has changed in an effort to highlight why it is no longer working as well for average Americans anymore. He also puts forth a potential solution, to democratize capitalism for our benefit.

I would like to see him debate a Chigago school economist or even and Austrian economist to see how he fares.

I have heard people like Michael Moore talk about democratizing capitalism which I'm sure would have to be some sort of forceful redistribution of ownership of a company's assets and revenue from employers and stock holders to employees. I have yet to see how they expect the people that hold all the risk in investments to not pull out of the economy and halt investments and economic progress once they are forced to take all the hits for the losses but share all the profits with others who didnt participate in the risk in the first place. It's just bound to be followed by a halt on investments and economic stagnation.

His solution is very not likely to happen. As Milton Friedman always pointed out, businesses that are too big are not desired because they are likely to use the government (especially if the government is very centralized and large as well) to drive out competition by getting subsidies, special contracts, putting restrictions on international trade, etc. What you have in the US right now is not a complete free market economy, but a corporatist system that favors businesses that can lobby congress to get special favors at a return of investment of three a four digit percent points.

This is the elephant on the wall that leftists usually recognize as an issue but wrongly attribute it to the free market. It's the by-product of a government that has hugely open the doors to entitlements first to those who are unfortunate and then to special interest groups that want in on the subsidy action, Open the doors to one, the other is sure to follow.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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30-05-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 07:59 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 12:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  His name is Richard Wolff, he's an economic professor and very critical of capitalism. Among the points he raises is the lack of democracy within capitalism, the failure of the United States ability to regulate it, the change in the labor market that started in the 70's, and the failure of an economic system that creates massive wealth inequality and a failure to utilize capacity. He also gives a great history lesson, showing why capitalism did work and has changed in an effort to highlight why it is no longer working as well for average Americans anymore. He also puts forth a potential solution, to democratize capitalism for our benefit.

I would like to see him debate a Chigago school economist or even and Austrian economist to see how he fares.

I have heard people like Michael Moore talk about democratizing capitalism which I'm sure would have to be some sort of forceful redistribution of ownership of a company's assets and revenue from employers and stock holders to employees. I have yet to see how they expect the people that hold all the risk in investments to not pull out of the economy and halt investments and economic progress once they are forced to take all the hits for the losses but share all the profits with others who didnt participate in the risk in the first place. It's just bound to be followed by a halt on investments and economic stagnation.

His solution is very not likely to happen. As Milton Friedman always pointed out, businesses that are too big are not desired because they are likely to use the government (especially if the government is very centralized and large as well) to drive out competition by getting subsidies, special contracts, putting restrictions on international trade, etc. What you have in the US right now is not a complete free market economy, but a corporatist system that favors businesses that can lobby congress to get special favors at a return of investment of three a four digit percent points.

This is the elephant on the wall that leftists usually recognize as an issue but wrongly attribute it to the free market. It's the by-product of a government that has hugely open the doors to entitlements first to those who are unfortunate and then to special interest groups that want in on the subsidy action, Open the doors to one, the other is sure to follow.

Bullshit. Open Unregulated Free Markets always end up in huge Monopolies. The less regulation on the system the quicker it happens. The fact that this is an issue again is because congress listened to idiots like Friedman and removed a lot of the regulations that were keeping businesses in check.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-05-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Bullshit. Open Unregulated Free Markets always end up in huge Monopolies. The less regulation on the system the quicker it happens. The fact that this is an issue again is because congress listened to idiots like Friedman and removed a lot of the regulations that were keeping businesses in check.

Please provide examples of this.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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30-05-2014, 08:16 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:14 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 08:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Bullshit. Open Unregulated Free Markets always end up in huge Monopolies. The less regulation on the system the quicker it happens. The fact that this is an issue again is because congress listened to idiots like Friedman and removed a lot of the regulations that were keeping businesses in check.

Please provide examples of this.

Funny how the libertarians always want everyone else to provide detailed studies but never bother with backing their own bullshit up.

Start Here

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-05-2014, 08:28 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:16 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Funny how the libertarians always want everyone else to provide detailed studies but never bother with backing their own bullshit up.

Start Here

"These practices included exerting control over national resources, accruing high levels of government influence"

Shows you didnt bother to read what I said earlier. And no I'm not a libertarian and neither was Friedman. Shows you havent read anything from him as well.

Empirical backing of economic growth with a free market includes but is not limited to decentralization in China since the 80's and India since the 90's and the track record of economical success of Hong Kong, Syngapore and Taiwan when adopting free trade and a free market.

What's your example of a free market monopoly?

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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30-05-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:28 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 08:16 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Funny how the libertarians always want everyone else to provide detailed studies but never bother with backing their own bullshit up.

Start Here

"These practices included exerting control over national resources, accruing high levels of government influence"

Shows you didnt bother to read what I said earlier. And no I'm not a libertarian and neither was Friedman. Shows you havent read anything from him as well.

Empirical backing of economic growth with a free market includes but is not limited to decentralization in China since the 80's and India since the 90's and the track record of economical success of Hong Kong, Syngapore and Taiwan when adopting free trade and a free market.

What's your example of a free market monopoly?

Oh I see we will rearrange words and pretend that the problem existed in a vacuum. How did they get big enough to influence governments and in most cases take them over? Yes when they got to the full on monopoly state they then started buying up governments to protect their status but that makes too much sense so lets pretend it didn't happen like that.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-05-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:31 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 08:28 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  What's your example of a free market monopoly?

Oh I see we will rearrange words and pretend that the problem existed in a vacuum. How did they get big enough to influence governments and in most cases take them over? Yes when they got to the full on monopoly state they then started buying up governments to protect their status but that makes too much sense so lets pretend it didn't happen like that.

I am still waiting for a concrete historical example of a monopoly.

As I stated before, huge businesses are not desirable because they are bound to turn their attention to the politicians to get special favors and keep competition out by getting governemental subsidies, restricting foreign trade and other competition.

Where the governnment is de-centralized and unable to provide significant entitlements, the effect is less lobbying, more competitiong and less corrupt politicians.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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30-05-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:44 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 08:31 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Oh I see we will rearrange words and pretend that the problem existed in a vacuum. How did they get big enough to influence governments and in most cases take them over? Yes when they got to the full on monopoly state they then started buying up governments to protect their status but that makes too much sense so lets pretend it didn't happen like that.

I am still waiting for a concrete historical example of a monopoly.

As I stated before, huge businesses are not desirable because they are bound to turn their attention to the politicians to get special favors and keep competition out by getting governemental subsidies, restricting foreign trade and other competition.

Where the governnment is de-centralized and unable to provide significant entitlements, the effect is less lobbying, more competitiong and less corrupt politicians.

So to provide evidence against your libertine fantasy I have to create a libertine utopia and have it go dystopic. But of course the US in the late 1800's does not count as there was a central government even though that was being run by as close to the Laissez faire system as anywhere in the world and resulted in huge monopolies cropping up in every industry.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-05-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 08:48 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So to provide evidence against your libertine fantasy I have to create a libertine utopia and have it go dystopic. But of course the US in the late 1800's does not count as there was a central government even though that was being run by as close to the Laissez faire system as anywhere in the world and resulted in huge monopolies cropping up in every industry.

You are clearly not interested in having an honest conversation devoid of strawmans and adhominems. You keep talking about all there huge monopolies but not one concrete example has been given. I'm not asking within a free trade and market system necessarilly but I have yet to get an honest response. The US in the late 1800's is fine if you want to pick from there but it was not the freeest economic system in the world at the time, the UK was.

I highly recommend you to learn some Economics before you engage in future discussions in regards to topics like this.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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30-05-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Evidence that having a degree doesn't make you less of a dumbass...
(30-05-2014 09:18 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  
(30-05-2014 08:48 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So to provide evidence against your libertine fantasy I have to create a libertine utopia and have it go dystopic. But of course the US in the late 1800's does not count as there was a central government even though that was being run by as close to the Laissez faire system as anywhere in the world and resulted in huge monopolies cropping up in every industry.

You are clearly not interested in having an honest conversation devoid of strawmans and adhominems. You keep talking about all there huge monopolies but not one concrete example has been given. I'm not asking within a free trade and market system necessarilly but I have yet to get an honest response. The US in the late 1800's is fine if you want to pick from there but it was not the freeest economic system in the world at the time, the UK was.

I highly recommend you to learn some Economics before you engage in future discussions in regards to topics like this.

US Steel, Standard Oil. We can start with them if you wish. BTW the appeal to authority you keep invoking is cute, as if someone need to have a degree in economics to have an opinion on regulatory law.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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