Evil reconsidered
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-11-2011, 10:20 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2011 10:23 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Evil reconsidered
(22-11-2011 09:56 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  We have a new cat. ... We already have five cats. We are stretched to our limit.

Wait you live in the country and are stretched to the limit by 5 cats who could presumably feed themselves if you just let them roam? I live in suburbia with up to 25 beagles living in my suburban house because my crazy-ass wife can't help but rescue beagles. You and I have different limits.

(22-11-2011 09:56 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  The new cat costs $2-300 for shots and fixing. We are way under the poverty line.

Tell them you'll take the cat, you ain't paying shit for adopting the cat or the vaccinations, and the cat's going to live on a farm. The shelter will just give it to you. ... Or else just put it down. ... The animal shelter people we've worked with are anything but pricks.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2011, 10:23 PM
 
RE: Evil reconsidered
For me the best symbol of evil, pain and suffering is the oily cormorant on the beach -- an image we are used to by now.
What is the cormorant to do? Just drown in the by-product of our evil and indifference.
Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2011, 10:41 PM
RE: Evil reconsidered
(22-11-2011 10:23 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  Just drown in the by-product of our evil and indifference.

Are they the same?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 07:47 AM
RE: Evil reconsidered
25 beagles... Tongue

Somebody read too much Peanuts.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2011 08:41 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: Evil reconsidered
(22-11-2011 09:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If you restrict the metaphysics to within the system, it's not a problem. It's all God then. Wink

What system? I'm not limiting anything: metaphysics is a human invention and must therefore be limited to social systems. So, all right. But the idea of deliberately caused pain - though prevalent in religions - is not limited to religious application. There is the widely-held belief that suffering purifies: hence, self-injuring and voluntarily undergoing painful rituals to prove loyalty to a brotherhood (hazing; initiation) and the notion of both revenge through injuring of the one who wronged us and earning forgiveness from those we wronged by accepting corporal punishment. And so on.

Pain itself is not evil. It's merely bad: a healthy animal will avoid it whenever possible, reduce or try to cure it when it's inescapable.
A sick, deluded, superstitious and maladapted mind accepts pain willingly, believes that it ought to suffer, asks for pain in the vain hope of improving itself.
Evil originates in the dominating mind that seeks to cause pain in others, to control others through pain; that persuades others to welcome, cherish and inflict pain.


(22-11-2011 09:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah, but it's only recently that we have become capable of even recognizing that deep down we are all pricks. Now that we realize it, I'm pretty sure each of us is capable of rectifying that bullshit. Whether or not we elect to is a different matter.

I don't actually believe our recognition of this is all that recent. Primitive mythologies and folklore are full of references to the multiple facets of human character, and how to deal with the conflicting impulses. Indeed, early supernatural beings were representations of human character traits reflected in natural phenomena. And most of the taboos and conventions were built on limiting the potential of instinctive behaviour to harm the community, while also giving the selfish, aggressive, competitive impulses a harmless outlet. Our ancestors were not only smarter than we usually give them credit for; they were probably more honest than we are.

For an isolated individual to overcome hir own internal sadist is only difficult. To do it in direct defiance of social imperative is damn near impossible. To do it in concert, as a society, is feasible - but only if we can clearly see the benefit of doing so. And that means, denying social advantage to the purveyors of suffering.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 11:42 AM
RE: Evil reconsidered
Did someone just call me an isolated sadist? Tongue

This quote from Peterkin I agree with: Pain itself is not evil. It's merely bad: a healthy animal will avoid it whenever possible, reduce or try to cure it when it's inescapable.
A sick, deluded, superstitious and maladapted mind accepts pain willingly, believes that it ought to suffer, asks for pain in the vain hope of improving itself.
Evil originates in the dominating mind that seeks to cause pain in others, to control others through pain; that persuades others to welcome, cherish and inflict pain.


But then there's Halo. To me, such is a positive expression of evolutionary imperative; that to focus the will to domination of virtualities like the Covenant is a beneficial expression of evolutionary awareness. I cannot help but feel that discussions of this type are a form of editing, where we try to define a problem so that we can make it go away; and I'm not thinking problems linked to evolution are going to go away, but rather we must evolve past them being a problem.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2011 05:35 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Evil reconsidered
(23-11-2011 08:23 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(22-11-2011 09:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If you restrict the metaphysics to within the system, it's not a problem. It's all God then. Wink

What system? I'm not limiting anything: metaphysics is a human invention and must therefore be limited to social systems. ....

(22-11-2011 09:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah, but it's only recently that we have become capable of even recognizing that deep down we are all pricks. Now that we realize it, I'm pretty sure each of us is capable of rectifying that bullshit. Whether or not we elect to is a different matter.

I don't actually believe our recognition of this is all that recent. ...

Oops, looks like I got drunk and went HoC on Peterkin yesterday. By the "system" I meant me and by "recent" I meant the advent of our species.


(23-11-2011 08:23 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  For an isolated individual to overcome hir own internal sadist is only difficult. To do it in direct defiance of social imperative is damn near impossible. To do it in concert, as a society, is feasible - but only if we can clearly see the benefit of doing so. And that means, denying social advantage to the purveyors of suffering.

I think, if I follow that reasoning, it means scrapping Capitalism as an economic system. It's worth consideration. I hate the way some people worship Capitalism as if it were God.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 05:38 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2011 05:55 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: Evil reconsidered
Yes, i'll happily go along with the advent of our species, since no previous species had this guilt thing; nobody could convince a baboon that he deserves to be punished for being born.

Capitalism is a continuation of the same thinking: the best capitalists are pious, smug and great believers in social Darwinism (What contradiction?) If you're born poor, you probably deserve to be poor and downtrodden your whole life, and bow to your betters. Rebel, and you deserve to be shot down in the street like dogs. Unless you're aggressive, clever, lucky and ruthless enough to climb over your peers to another stratum of society.... which will reject you, but keep fighting and teach your kids to fight, and maybe your grandson will buy a classy bride....
Never mind, the natural cycle will take care of that socio-evolutionary glitch.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 06:09 PM
RE: Evil reconsidered
(23-11-2011 05:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Oops, looks like I got drunk and went HoC on Peterkin yesterday.

Have I become the social paradigm of assholery? Inquiring minds wanna know! Wink

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-11-2011, 06:13 PM
RE: Evil reconsidered
(23-11-2011 11:42 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Did someone just call me an isolated sadist? Tongue

This quote from Peterkin I agree with: Pain itself is not evil. It's merely bad: a healthy animal will avoid it whenever possible, reduce or try to cure it when it's inescapable.
A sick, deluded, superstitious and maladapted mind accepts pain willingly, believes that it ought to suffer, asks for pain in the vain hope of improving itself.
Evil originates in the dominating mind that seeks to cause pain in others, to control others through pain; that persuades others to welcome, cherish and inflict pain.


But then there's Halo. To me, such is a positive expression of evolutionary imperative; that to focus the will to domination of virtualities like the Covenant is a beneficial expression of evolutionary awareness. I cannot help but feel that discussions of this type are a form of editing, where we try to define a problem so that we can make it go away; and I'm not thinking problems linked to evolution are going to go away, but rather we must evolve past them being a problem.

Do not a great many of us hold vague notions and concerns about pain and suffering in their many and varied forms?Really, I think we fail to act because much is placed in the 'too hard basket' and we are intoxicated by the alluring scents of capitalism.

As finite beings (probably) we are locked into our own little world and accept third world suffering as the norm, and trillions spent on weaponry as somehow beneficial in the long term. Many people do not see global problems at all; they live in their little fantasy worlds.

We face natural problems as well as contrived ones such as greed, overpopulation,blatant consumerism, superstition, suspicion, radical ideologies and genuine needs related issues that simply receive band aiding.

I think it is incumbent upon thinking people to raise these and many other issues.
As for any quick fixes, evolution has been historically very slow and Dawkin's memes not all that compassionate.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Mr Woof's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: