Evolution and history.. we were apes
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08-08-2016, 12:03 AM
Evolution and history.. we were apes
So when scouring back through the list of millennia... the furthest you can go back where there's accounts of history is 11th millennia. Someone check that if I'm wrong. But my point/question will remain regardless but for sake of argument we'll say recorded history only goes back about 12,000 yrs or so. Evolution tells us that we become bi-pedal and started walking upright about 200,000 yrs ago and we find clothing suggesting our ancestors wore clothing about 170,000 yrs ago. (again timeline may be off)

So just for argument sake let's say 170,000 yrs ago our ancestors began settling into social groups, wearing clothing, and so on. Obviously language wasn't a thing so communication was done via art, hand gestures, etc. As we evolved from this point our communication skills only get better and throughout the many thousands of years to come we clearly overcome natural disasters, being hunted, killing each other, etc. No doubt stories of these events would be shared via art, hand gestures, or somehow. Including of course stories of our origins I'd imagine.

So my question is... as we evolved and passed down information over the years from generation to generation regarding stories, lessons learned, and so on... how is it that all of that history from 170,000 yrs ago would disappear? Let's go back to my most likely ill informed timeline for a second to help clarify my question a little bit better. Suppose we begin recording history around 10,000 BC. Let's look at the bulleted historic accounts and/or things we know from this millennia real quick:

c. 10,603 BC: Comet Hale-Bopp appears. It does not come back until the 8th millennium BC.
c. 10,000 BC: First cave drawings of the Mesolithic period are made, with war scenes and religious scenes.
c. 10,000 BC: Bottle Gourd is domesticated and used as a carrying vessel.
c. 10,000 BC: end of the most recent glaciation.
c. 9700 BC: Younger Dryas cold period and the Pleistocene epoch ends, start of the Holocene epoch.
c. 9500 BC: There is evidence of harvesting, though not necessarily cultivation, of wild grasses in Asia Minor about this time.
c. 9500 BC: First building phase of the temple complex at Göbekli Tepe.
c. 9300 BC: Figs were apparently cultivated in the Jordan River valley.[3]
c. 9100 BC: Oldest radiocarbon date confirmed at Göbekli Tepe's temple complexes...
c. 9000 BC: Neolithic culture began in Ancient Near East.
c. 9000 BC: Near East: First stone structures at Jericho are built.

You can see drawings are found with religious scenes that are estimated to have been drawn in this period. Evidence of harvesting in this period as well. My guess is the people, or cavemen rather, we're capable of relaying stories told as well. So how would they have not known of their origins? How did these people not know they are naked apes in other words? Or did they?
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08-08-2016, 12:22 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 12:29 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
Wow! 10,000 BCE was a busy year!

So, by your reasoning, we were naked around 170,000 BCE (except maybe fig leaves?) and documentation started around 10,000 BCE ... that's 160,000 years to pass down the story of hairy-ape-ness.

Data integrity ain't what it used to be... fortunately.

No

I blame the deca-millennials; too busy playing with their x-rocks and pray-stations to care about preserving anything for posterity.

Lazy fucks!

Drinking Beverage

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08-08-2016, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 12:43 AM by dirtstar.)
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 12:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Wow! 10,000 BCE was a busy year!

So, by your reasoning, we were naked around 170,000 BCE (except maybe fig leaves?) and documentation started around 10,000 BCE ... that's 160,000 years to pass down the story of hairy-ape-ness.

Data integrity ain't what it used to be... fortunately.

No

I blame the deca-millennials; too busy playing with their x-rocks and pray-stations to care about preserving anything for posterity.

Lazy fucks!

Drinking Beverage

Ha. I must admit I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist on this and might be trying to work the data in my favor. Thumbsup

Let's call it like it is then. To curb violence and control the masses the religious idea of deity's that was always there to explain death, disasters, and the sun was officially adopted by leaders of society's and thus began the brainwashing of the masses. Big Grin

Man this shit is easy.

I'd still like to hear; however, some real history lessons on how our ancestors managed to get through the ice age in detail. Now there's a reason to go to history class! I feel cheated. Boo!
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08-08-2016, 12:43 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
*Scratches head*

So... the question is...?

How would beings.. with no method or good forms or ways of communication... be able to record things over a roughly 300 to 600 year period... where the average life span is measured in what? A couple of decades at most?

So... 50 to 100 generations where the beings almost illiterately can't pass on/down information?

Have I got that right? Might the poster see my points in reply to their opening statement?
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08-08-2016, 12:49 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
^ no kidding Smile
The information they passed down was likely focused on survival. Not what I'd call history.
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08-08-2016, 12:58 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 01:10 AM by dirtstar.)
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 12:43 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  *Scratches head*

So... the question is...?

How would beings.. with no method or good forms or ways of communication... be able to record things over a roughly 300 to 600 year period... where the average life span is measured in what? A couple of decades at most?

So... 50 to 100 generations where the beings almost illiterately can't pass on/down information?

Have I got that right? Might the poster see my points in reply to their opening statement?

Sure I'll try. Blush

As you see in my reply above, I'm suspicious religion replaced our true history. Sure it's a conspiracy theory. The idea is that while it seems there were no good forms of communicating complex ideas, there's plenty of communication techniques like art drawings and hand gestures good enough to illustrate most simple concepts. Our origins and history, being that we evolved over long periods of time, could still be passed down using these simple techniques. And it's not as if we suffered amnesia collectively and wouldn't know our true origins imo.

Why wouldn't our origins have been communicated from generation to generation as well? Say along with tool making, harvesting, and cave painting techniques? I'm sure it was naturally easy to share this. It's not as if as we're evolving we would all of a sudden become confused with how we got here. As a matter of fact, the fact there are no drawings found of our ancestors drawing apes on the wall could indicate an ideal that was just known and accepted among our ancestors.

What say you?
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08-08-2016, 01:19 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 12:58 AM)dirtstar Wrote:  Why wouldn't our origins have been communicated from generation to generation as well? Say along with tool making, harvesting, and cave painting techniques? It's not as if as we're evolving we would all of a sudden become confused with how we got here.

What say you?

Lots of animals communicate with each other. Bees communicate the location of flower patches. The ability of human being like creatures to communicate probably proceeds the ability of human beings to conceive the notion of origins.
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08-08-2016, 01:27 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
We were something like human for 3 million years, and there's no definitive point where we "turned human", which might spark the kind of memory you're describing here. In other words, no generation would see a difference between their own generation and all the others still alive, or in recent memory, just as it is today.

We are still evolving, just as our ancestors did, and even with the help of writing (which was only developed about 4000 years ago), it took rapid DNA-scanning techniques to prove that white people only evolved in Europe about 8,000 years ago... we have no stories about this happening, other than some magical-god-stories that get it all wrong.

The cave paintings actually go back 40,800 years (in Spain), and there's some indication that ones in Indonesia may be older than that. That puts us painting on cave walls a solid 30,000 years before we stopped being Hunter-Gatherers and developed sustained agriculture (and that, of course, was not all at once, everywhere).

There is absolutely no reason to expect the people to "remember" something that they could not see happening... so there was literally nothing for them to pass down.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2016, 01:30 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 12:58 AM)dirtstar Wrote:  Sure I'll try. Blush

As you see in my reply above, I'm suspicious religion replaced our true history. Sure it's a conspiracy theory. The idea is that while it seems there were no good forms of communicating complex ideas, there's plenty of communication techniques like art drawings and hand gestures good enough to illustrate most simple concepts. Our origins and history, being that we evolved over long periods of time, could still be passed down using these simple techniques. And it's not as if we suffered amnesia collectively and wouldn't know our true origins imo.

Why wouldn't our origins have been communicated from generation to generation as well? Say along with tool making, harvesting, and cave painting techniques? I'm sure it was naturally easy to share this. It's not as if as we're evolving we would all of a sudden become confused with how we got here. As a matter of fact, the fact there are no drawings found of our ancestors drawing apes on the wall could indicate an ideal that was just known and accepted among our ancestors.

What say you?

Except... the very notions you're talking about... need to have complex other ideas/concepts in place even before they can be some how passed down.

It's not a case of "Why wouldn't" but why would those present at the time... with no real knowledge/communication base... even bother or heck, even know in the first place to pass such information along?

Not when there's waaaay so much more immediate things to keep a track of 'Don't eat this. Don't let that eat you. Hold rock like this. Hold stick like this. Throw rock at that. Poke stick at those.

Then there's the weather to look out for... season... migrations (Which are another thing that the then current knowledge base would be ignorant/empty of).

They did not have the basic mental tools to begin to do what you're suggesting. Those tools, like everything else for want of a better word 'Evolved'/'developed' over time along side those living in the times.

Edit" What Rocketsurgeon said much betterer than me. Blush
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08-08-2016, 05:49 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
One -- you're making an assumption that every generation finds it good and necessary to dwell excessively on the past - and "keep the information alive"....

.....

Not really.....

For instance -- Not only do I not know the first name of my great grandfather -- neither does my dad. We never met the guy. He was back in Lithuania - and couldn't read or write...

Tough to carry on a conversation 3000 miles away - without a phone, a computer, or even snailmail............

....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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