Evolution and history.. we were apes
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09-08-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
Some people are still apes.

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09-08-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 10:56 AM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(08-08-2016 12:49 AM)skyking Wrote:  ^ no kidding Smile
The information they passed down was likely focused on survival. Not what I'd call history.

A good book that gets into some of that stuff is Graham Hancock's Supernatural.
Check it out. He works on explaining cave art and religion and other things in an evolutionary context.

Isn't he one of the "Forbidden Archaeology" guys? Dodgy
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09-08-2016, 04:40 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(09-08-2016 12:13 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Some people are still apes.

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09-08-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(08-08-2016 12:03 AM)dirtstar Wrote:  So when scouring back through the list of millennia... the furthest you can go back where there's accounts of history is 11th millennia. Someone check that if I'm wrong. But my point/question will remain regardless but for sake of argument we'll say recorded history only goes back about 12,000 yrs or so. Evolution tells us that we become bi-pedal and started walking upright about 200,000 yrs ago and we find clothing suggesting our ancestors wore clothing about 170,000 yrs ago. (again timeline may be off)

So just for argument sake let's say 170,000 yrs ago our ancestors began settling into social groups, wearing clothing, and so on. Obviously language wasn't a thing so communication was done via art, hand gestures, etc. As we evolved from this point our communication skills only get better and throughout the many thousands of years to come we clearly overcome natural disasters, being hunted, killing each other, etc. No doubt stories of these events would be shared via art, hand gestures, or somehow. Including of course stories of our origins I'd imagine.

So my question is... as we evolved and passed down information over the years from generation to generation regarding stories, lessons learned, and so on... how is it that all of that history from 170,000 yrs ago would disappear? Let's go back to my most likely ill informed timeline for a second to help clarify my question a little bit better. Suppose we begin recording history around 10,000 BC. Let's look at the bulleted historic accounts and/or things we know from this millennia real quick:

c. 10,603 BC: Comet Hale-Bopp appears. It does not come back until the 8th millennium BC.
c. 10,000 BC: First cave drawings of the Mesolithic period are made, with war scenes and religious scenes.
c. 10,000 BC: Bottle Gourd is domesticated and used as a carrying vessel.
c. 10,000 BC: end of the most recent glaciation.
c. 9700 BC: Younger Dryas cold period and the Pleistocene epoch ends, start of the Holocene epoch.
c. 9500 BC: There is evidence of harvesting, though not necessarily cultivation, of wild grasses in Asia Minor about this time.
c. 9500 BC: First building phase of the temple complex at Göbekli Tepe.
c. 9300 BC: Figs were apparently cultivated in the Jordan River valley.[3]
c. 9100 BC: Oldest radiocarbon date confirmed at Göbekli Tepe's temple complexes...
c. 9000 BC: Neolithic culture began in Ancient Near East.
c. 9000 BC: Near East: First stone structures at Jericho are built.

You can see drawings are found with religious scenes that are estimated to have been drawn in this period. Evidence of harvesting in this period as well. My guess is the people, or cavemen rather, we're capable of relaying stories told as well. So how would they have not known of their origins? How did these people not know they are naked apes in other words? Or did they?

I don't see how they could have known evolutionary history. There were probably just creation myths from their crude god concepts, Gobekli Tepe shows that they thought in lines of gods and animalistic deities.

Religion is useful for an organizing influence that usually works for your tribe. As soon as you run into another tribe, with another god, that's when the bloodshed begins. If Trodor (mythical caveman name) was able to grow his tribe large enough, then Trodor's god concept became the dominant one and Trodor could show you the light if you didn't see it, or rather Trodor's tribe would show you their clubs as they smashed your head in.

If a tribe in Africa saw some apes, perhaps they could have made the connection that they were our evolutionary ancestors, but I just don't think a neolithic human would have thought that they birthed us, they would have come up with a story that the gods favored us and promoted us to rule over the apes and other animals.

This feeds that very basic human need to feel special and superior to other animals and other humans.

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09-08-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
You're still not listening, OP.

They made up all kinds of stories about our origins-- usually religious, since that's how early humanity tended to explain things they couldn't understand (such as thunder, lightning, the sun, etc.)-- because of their curiousity and desire to have some explanation for things.

But they had no way to possibly recognize that evolution was happening to them. There is no point where they would have said "we are apes" or "we were apes". It's not about curiosity or anything else, so there's nothing to "cover up" with religion. There simply was no difference between any of the generations they could remember such that they would even notice the subtle changes-- we look today just like humans looked 2,000 years ago when Paul walked the earth, and yet we are evolving just as rapidly as at any time in the 2,900,000 years since Australopithecus.

On the other hand, as has been pointed out, religious organization probable emerged from basic shamanism/animism because of the benefits to tribal identity it provided. Roughly 85% of humanity seems to be genetically "coded" for religious sentimentality, if I recall correctly, and it is speculated that this is because it provided an advantage to tribes who had larger numbers of that phenotype, against other tribes who were less cohesive and more individualist. It's why religion and xenophobia are also so linked, unfortunately, since it provides a sense of "good" versus "bad" social behaviors and a definition of "us" versus "them".

So either I'm missing what exactly you're talking about, or you're missing what I am talking about.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-08-2016, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2016 03:29 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(09-08-2016 12:13 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Some people are still apes.

Actually, we are ALL still apes. Humans have never stopped being great apes.

The taxonomic family that we belong to is Hominidae, which includes: Pongo (orangutans), gorillas, Pan (common chimps and bonobos) and Homo (humans).
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09-08-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(09-08-2016 03:24 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(09-08-2016 12:13 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Some people are still apes.

Actually, we are ALL still apes. Humans have never stopped being great apes.

The taxonomic family that we belong to is Hominidae, which includes: Pongo (orangutans), gorillas, Pan (common chimps and bonobos) and Homo (humans).

The Great Apes would like to exclude my cousins from that grouping, please.
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09-08-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
Let's do this by simple analogy.

Since you're posting this on a web forum, kindly describe how the internet came to exist, beginning with the abacus. Do not use Wikipedia or any other source aside from your own recollections.

Unless you're an odd mix of comp sci geek and history buff I doubt you'll be able to manage even a rough approximation. Now let's compare the two:
- The creation of the internet is a much more recent event. Within living memory for many people.
- The creation of the internet is documented. We had written language back in the '80s.
- The creation of the internet was an abrupt transition, effectively instantaneous compared to the gradual change from ape-like ancestor over millions of years.
- The basic concepts required to understand the creation of the internet are probably simpler than those necessary to wrap your head around hominid evolution.

If we can't blame religion for your inability to understand this recent, well-documented and relatively simple event then why would we expect it to be the reason that a much more complicated, undocumented and ridiculously complicated event is lost to memory in deep time?

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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09-08-2016, 04:33 PM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
IN the society I live in there are people who have no knowledge of when WW 2 was or who Elvis Presley was, nor Chuck Barry. I haven't tried to test it, but I would bet they wouldn't know who Goldie Maier was nor Stalin nor Churchill.
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09-08-2016, 04:34 PM
RE: Evolution and history.. we were apes
(09-08-2016 03:24 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  The taxonomic family that we belong to is Hominidae, which includes: Pongo (orangutans), gorillas, Pan (common chimps and bonobos) and Homo (humans).

An excellent argument for gay rights. Smile

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