Evolution debate. Please help!
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16-12-2013, 10:33 PM
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 12:29 PM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  Asexual reproduction just isn't good enough for successful survivorship. Even bacteria have a form of 'sex'---conjugation. Evolution is all about VARIATION.

I do wonder about nipples though. Where did those originate from---and why on both sexes? Must do some googling soon.

Dudes have nipples because we all start off as female in the womb. Then testosterone kicks in after ~60 days.
http://www.livescience.com/32467-why-do-...pples.html
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16-12-2013, 10:41 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 06:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 10:28 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 10:08 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Tell him to read this, and ask questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_o...production

LOL

...several competing scientific hypotheses
...hypotheses for the origins of sex are difficult to test experimentally
...mutation in an haploid individual

The word "mutation" appears 47 times on that page.

You accuse us of God-of-the-Gaps and yet you are happy to have;

random,
spontaneous,
mutation,
hypothesis which are difficult to test.....

Oh, OK. Jebus' pops done it. Never mind.
The 70th son of the Babylonian chief deity, (Yahweh Sabaoth ... the Sumerian war god) did it. THAT is a FAR FAR better explanation. Not.
Pussy Cat IRC, have you ever ONCE taken an Evolutionary, or even basic Biology class ? Welcome to the real world. There are lots of questions science is still working on. I DO realize if you can't stomp your two year old foot, demand an answer, and get it TODAY, you feel you get to make up an answer, cuz that's what you NEED. But really ? What are you doing back here ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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16-12-2013, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2013 11:02 PM by Jeffasaurus.)
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 10:28 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  LOL

...several competing scientific hypotheses
...hypotheses for the origins of sex are difficult to test experimentally
...mutation in an haploid individual

The word "mutation" appears 47 times on that page.

You accuse us of God-of-the-Gaps and yet you are happy to have;

random,
spontaneous,
mutation,
hypothesis which are difficult to test.....

While variation is important for evolution, environmental filtration is equally as critical. Without an environment to make specific traits favorable or unfavorable, natural selection will not occur.
Perhaps you have forgotten this fact.

Science is a method for discovering facts of our natural universe. Science is not afraid to say, "I don't know." Theists will conceitedly proclaim, "God did it" without any evidence whatsoever. —That's lame.

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17-12-2013, 05:16 AM
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 10:28 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 10:08 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Tell him to read this, and ask questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_o...production

LOL

...several competing scientific hypotheses
...hypotheses for the origins of sex are difficult to test experimentally
...mutation in an haploid individual

The word "mutation" appears 47 times on that page.

You accuse us of God-of-the-Gaps and yet you are happy to have;

random,
spontaneous,
mutation,
hypothesis which are difficult to test.....

I'm just going to assume that you are extremely bad at math and therefor can not comprehend time in the 7+ digit range.

For you it is far more believable to have 1 thing responsible for everything, rather than accepting that billions of years have gone past in which billions of generations of living organisms have reproduced, that millions to billions of mutations have occurred through those billions of reproduction cycles to eventually bring about life as we know it. Any number greater than 7 digits just doesn't mean anything to you as you'd rather deal with 1 person with 7 days responsible for 6,000 years of existence. Right.

"Good news, everyone!"
-Cody
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17-12-2013, 05:59 AM
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
The God of the gaps is about unknowns being filled with supernatural elements.

Why is there female and males sexes > because of God is one arguement full wihtin the god of the gaps..

Why is there male and female sexes > because the development of more complex organisms NEED to have a gestation period to become suitable for the environment.. The more diverse organisms that gestated then found the ones that used 2 inputs to the young were more successful and so the two organisms making 1 became mainstream, those organisms that found if one of the mating pair focussed on one half and the other focussed on the other they were more successful so the sexes formed with one side focussing on the male half and the other focussing on the female half.

This was just done by random mutations, its hard to see how else this could have happened. those mutations that were more successful thrived and the ones that didnt change were threatened (not that they died out per say).

I dont particularly think we need to prove this occurs in this manner, as it would be incredibly hard and time consuming to do so. but because we can track a lot of things down through the genes we can see the traces of the past.

For me the burdon of proof is heavily on the creationists side due to the presence of enough fossil records to disprove their ideas totally and utterly.
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17-12-2013, 06:38 AM
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 10:28 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  LOL

...several competing scientific hypotheses
...hypotheses for the origins of sex are difficult to test experimentally
...mutation in an haploid individual

The word "mutation" appears 47 times on that page.

You accuse us of God-of-the-Gaps and yet you are happy to have;

random,
spontaneous,
mutation,
hypothesis which are difficult to test.....

Besides your compelling critique of evolution by natural selection we also know that Nimrod and Satan collaborated to invent the theory of evolution by natural selection.
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17-12-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Evolution debate. Please help!
(16-12-2013 10:59 AM)CasualSpooner Wrote:  I am no debater, and I got into a conversation with a co-worker and I would like to find an answer to a question I got from him.

He asked "if evolution is real, then how do we have male and female of any species"

I know there must be a simple example, but not having come across that (as far as I can remember) in my readings, I was wondering if anyone knew a good place to find an answer to that question.

Thanks in advance!
Andy

Some of my notes on evolution, just for your knowledge base. Feel free to use if you desire.

The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology, and others. A total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists support evolution. An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters, states that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution". Additionally, the scientific community considers intelligent design, a neo-creationist offshoot, to be unscientific, pseudoscience, or junk science.

The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own. 38 Nobel laureates issued a statement saying "Intelligent design is fundamentally unscientific; it cannot be tested as scientific theory because its central conclusion is based on belief in the intervention of a supernatural agent."

A coalition representing more than 70,000 Australian scientists and science teachers issued a statement saying "intelligent design is not science" and calling on "all schools not to teach Intelligent Design (ID) as science, because it fails to qualify on every count as a scientific theory".

An amicus curiae brief, signed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners, 17 state academies of science and 7 other scientific societies, asked the US Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard, to reject a Louisiana state law requiring the teaching of creationism (which the brief described as embodying religious dogma). This was the largest collection of Nobel Prize winners to sign such a supporting document providing the "clearest statement by scientists in support of evolution yet produced."

The American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society with more than 130,000 members and over 262 affiliated societies and academies of science including over 10 million individuals, has made several statements and issued several press releases in support of evolution.

The prestigious United States National Academy of Sciences, which provides science advice to the nation, has published several books supporting evolution and denouncing creationism and intelligent design. A poll by Pew Research Center found that "Nearly all scientists (97%) say humans and other living things have evolved over time - common decent with modifications."

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The anatomy of the human eye, in fact, shows anything but "intelligence" in its design. it is built upside down and backwards, requiring photons of light to travel through the cornea, lens, acquaeous fluid, blood vessels, ganglion cells, amacrine cells, horizontal cells, and bipolar cells before they reach the light sensitive rods and cones that transduce the light signal into neural impulses....which are then sent to the visual cortex at the back of the brain for processing into meaningful patterns. For optimal vision, why would an intelligent designer have built an eye upside down and backwards?
-----------------


The lines of evidence for evolution can be broken down into 4 groups.
a) Fossil evidence: The fossil record provides snapshots of the past that, when assembled, illustrate a panorama of evolutionary change over the past four billion years. The picture may be smudged in places and may have bits missing, but fossil evidence clearly shows that life is old and has changed over time.

b) Homologies: Evolutionary theory predicts that related organisms will share similarities that are derived from common ancestors. Similar characteristics due to relatedness are known as homologies. Homologies can be revealed by comparing the anatomies of different living things, looking at cellular similarities and differences, studying embryological development, and studying vestigial structures within individual organisms. Frogs, birds, rabbits and lizards all have different forelimbs, reflecting their different lifestyles. But those different forelimbs all share the same set of bones - the humerus, the radius, and the ulna. These are the same bones seen in fossils of the extinct transitional animal, Eusthenopteron, which demonstrates their common ancestry.

c) distribution in time and space: Understanding the history of life on Earth requires a grasp of the depth of time and breadth of space. We must keep in mind that the time involved is vast compared to a human lifetime and the space necessary for this to occur includes all the water and land surfaces of the world. Establishing chronologies, both relative and absolute, and geographic change over time are essential for viewing the motion picture that is the history of life on Earth.

d) Chronology utilizing relative and numerical dating methods.

All available evidence supports the central conclusions of evolutionary theory, that life on Earth has evolved and that species share common ancestors. If you want to deluge yourself with data, there are copious amounts of websites, check out berkeley's evolution page, it even has pictures Wink

2. Big bang, first off, a common misconception is there was some type of massive explosion 13.8 billion years ago creating the big bang. Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was and concentrated universe, something happened and now it is in a state of (and continues to be) expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe.

What are the major evidences which support the Big Bang theory?

First of all, we are reasonably certain that the universe had a beginning.

Second, galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This is called "Hubble's Law," named after Edwin Hubble (1889-1953) who discovered this phenomenon in 1929. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.

Third, if the universe was initially very, very hot as the Big Bang suggests, we should be able to find some remnant of this heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for.
------------------------

evidence of evolution today...currently evolving, just a few examples...

1) As the huge array of drug resistant pathogens grows we are learning that evolution is easiest to observe in species with a quick generation turnover. Since 1988, in the lab of Richard Lenski, the evolution of twelve E. coli populations from a single ancestor strain has been studied. Since then, over 50,000 generations of E. coli have been and gone, and the differences between the populations and each population from the ancestor strain have been documented. With samples of each population taken regularly the accumulated genetic changes can be followed with ease. Over time the bacteria have become far more efficient at growing under the conditions used. This study has provided evidence of how evolution actually occurs. One of the populations developed the ability to utilize citrate as a nutrient, something otherwise unknown in E. coli under similar conditions.

2) Studying evolution can take decades, but occasionally change happens incredibly rapidly. The Blue Moon Butterfly (Hypolimnas bolina) of the Samoan islands was being attacked by a parasite which destroyed male embryos. This led to a gender imbalance whereby males made up only 1% of the butterfly population. However, within ten generations (~1 year) males had returned to 40% of the population. This is not because the parasite has disappeared, it is still present, but it is no longer deadly to male embryos. This case shows how a mutation giving an advantage can rapidly spread throughout a population. Any male with the ability to survive infection would be able to mate with a great many females, due to the paucity of other males, and spread his immunity through the gene pool.

3) The medium ground finch was well established on the isle of Daphne, and had been studied in depth. Its beak was suited perfectly for cracking large nuts. In 1982, the large ground finch from a neighboring island arrived. These larger finches could drive away the native medium ground finches and would eat all the large nuts. Over the period of study, the medium ground finches of Daphne island were found to have developed smaller beaks more suited to the smaller nuts, ignored by the invading larger finches. This is a classic study in evolutionary biology.

4) In 1971, ten Italian wall lizards (Podarcis sicula) were introduced to the island of Pod Mrčaru from a neighboring island. The lizards were left for decades, and compared to the colony from which they were taken. The wall lizards on Pod Mrčaru, having passed through a tiny genetic bottleneck, were found to have thrived and adapted to their new island. They were found to have shifted from a mainly insectivorous diet to one heavy in vegetation. This diet change seems to have driven dramatic changes in the lizards. The head of the Pod Mrčaru lizards is larger, and has a far greater bite force. These are key adaptations for dealing with chewing leaves. The most exciting sign of evolution is the development of cecal valves, muscles used to separate portions of the intestine. These serve to slow the passage of food through the intestine and give time for the bacteria in the gut to breakdown the plant matter for absorption. This is an entirely novel development in the Italian wall lizard, and a major adaptation.

5) The example of the peppered moth is a nice one for textbooks because it uses a single trait. Speciation involves many mutations leading to significant changes. The yellow bellied three-toed skink (Saiphos equalis) is a lizard of New South Wales, in Australia, that appears to be undergoing the change from laying eggs to live birth. Since these skinks can either lay eggs or give birth, it gives scientists the chance to study the adaptations necessary for live birth. Skink embryos encased in an egg have an extra source of calcium that the live born skinks lack. It turns out that this nutritional difference is made up by the mother secreting extra calcium for the young held inside her. This looks like the first step on the road to developing a system like the mammalian placenta. Skinks living on the coast tend to lay eggs, probably because the warm weather is predictable and sufficient for embryonic development. Those skinks living in the cooler mountains tend to give birth to live young, the mother’s body providing a more stable temperature. It is to be predicted that these two populations will at some point separate into different species as each population becomes fixed in its reproductive strategy. This brings up a common question in creationists – If man evolved from apes, why are there still apes? Well, with the skinks we would see two species formed, an egg laying and a live birthing species. Each would be best suited for their habitat. If live birthing skinks evolved from egg layers, why are there still egg layers? Because each is adapted for its niche.
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Evidence of common descent of living things has been discovered by scientists working in a variety of fields over many years. This evidence has demonstrated and verified the occurrence of evolution and provided a wealth of information on the natural processes by which the variety and diversity of life on Earth developed. This evidence supports the modern evolutionary synthesis, the current scientific theory that explains how and why life changes over time. Evolutionary biologists document evidence of common descent: making testable predictions, testing hypotheses, and developing theories that illustrate and describe its causes.

Comparison of the DNA genetic sequences of organisms has revealed that organisms that are phylogenetically close have a higher degree of DNA sequence similarity than organisms that are phylogenetically distant. Further evidence for common descent comes from genetic detritus such as pseudogenes, regions of DNA that are orthologous to a gene in a related organism, but are no longer active and appear to be undergoing a steady process of degeneration from cumulative mutations.

Fossils are important for estimating when various lineages developed in geologic time. As fossilization is an uncommon occurrence, usually requiring hard body parts and death near a site where sediments are being deposited, the fossil record only provides sparse and intermittent information about the evolution of life. Evidence of organisms prior to the development of hard body parts such as shells, bones and teeth is especially scarce, but exists in the form of ancient microfossils, as well as impressions of various soft-bodied organisms. The comparative study of the anatomy of groups of animals shows structural features that are fundamentally similar or homologous, demonstrating phylogenetic and ancestral relationships with other organisms, most especially when compared with fossils of ancient extinct organisms. Vestigial structures and comparisons in embryonic development are largely a contributing factor in anatomical resemblance in concordance with common descent. Since metabolic processes do not leave fossils, research into the evolution of the basic cellular processes is done largely by comparison of existing organisms’ physiology and biochemistry. Many lineages diverged at different stages of development, so it is possible to determine when certain metabolic processes appeared by comparing the traits of the descendants of a common ancestor. Universal biochemical organization and molecular variance patterns in all organisms also show a direct correlation with common descent.

Further evidence comes from the field of biogeography because evolution with common descent provides the best and most thorough explanation for a variety of facts concerning the geographical distribution of plants and animals across the world. This is especially obvious in the field of island biogeography. Combined with the theory of plate tectonics common descent provides a way to combine facts about the current distribution of species with evidence from the fossil record to provide a logically consistent explanation of how the distribution of living organisms has changed over time.

The development and spread of antibiotic resistant bacteria, like the spread of pesticide resistant forms of plants and insects provides evidence that evolution due to natural selection is an ongoing process in the natural world. Alongside this, are observed instances of the separation of populations of species into sets of new species (speciation). Speciation has been observed directly and indirectly in the lab and in nature. Multiple forms of such have been described and documented as examples for individual modes of speciation
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The human ABO blood group system is controlled by alleles at a single locus on chromosome 9. The alleles encode glycosyltransferases, which add different sugar residues to the terminal part of the oligosaccharide core, thus generating the A or B antigens; an allele encoding enzymatically inactive protein is responsible for the blood group O. The A and B antigens are present not only in humans, but also in many other primate species and it has been proposed that the AB polymorphism was established long before these species diverged. Here we provide molecular evidence for the trans-species evolution of the AB polymorphism. Polymerase-chain reaction (PCR) amplification and sequencing has revealed that the critical substitutions differentiating the A and B genes occurred before the divergence of the lineages leading to humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans. This polymorphism is therefore at least 13 million years old and is most likely maintained by selection. Comparison of the sequences derived from different species indicates that the difference in enzymatic activities between the A and B transferases is caused by two single nucleotide substitutions responsible for Leu-Met and Gly-Ala replacement at positions 265 and 267 in the polypeptide chains, respectively.

The three living monophyletic divisions of Class Mammalia are the Prototheria (monotremes), Metatheria (marsupials), and Eutheria (`placental' mammals). Determining the sister relationships among these three groups is the most fundamental question in mammalian evolution. Phylogenetic comparison of these mammals by either anatomy or mitochondrial DNA has resulted in two conflicting hypotheses, Theria and Marsupionta, and has fueled a ``genes versus morphology'' controversy. We have cloned and analyzed a large nuclear gene, the mannose 6-phosphate/insulin-like growth factor II receptor (M6P/IGF2R), from representatives of all three mammalian groups, including platypus, echidna, opossum, wallaby, hedgehog, mouse, rat, rabbit, cow, pig, bat, tree shrew, colugo, ringtail lemur, and human. Statistical analysis of this nuclear gene unambiguously supports the morphology-based Theria hypothesis that excludes monotremes from a clade of marsupials and eutherians. The M6P/IGF2R was also able to resolve the finer structure of the eutherian mammalian family tree. In particular, our analyses support sister group relationships between lagomorphs and rodents, and between the primates and Dermoptera. Statistical support for the grouping of the hedgehog with Feruungulata and Chiroptera was also strong.

The genetic code, formerly thought to be frozen, is now known to be in a state of evolution. This was first shown in 1979 by Barrell et al. (G. Barrell, A. T. Bankier, and J. Drouin, Nature [London] 282:189-194, 1979), who found that the universal codons AUA (isoleucine) and UGA (stop) coded for methionine and tryptophan, respectively, in human mitochondria. Subsequent studies have shown that UGA codes for tryptophan in Mycoplasma spp. and in all nonplant mitochondria that have been examined. Universal stop codons UAA and UAG code for glutamine in ciliated protozoa (except Euplotes octacarinatus) and in a green alga, Acetabularia. E. octacarinatus uses UAA for stop and UGA for cysteine. Candida species, which are yeasts, use CUG (leucine) for serine. Other departures from the universal code, all in nonplant mitochondria, are CUN (leucine) for threonine (in yeasts), AAA (lysine) for asparagine (in platyhelminths and echinoderms), UAA (stop) for tyrosine (in planaria), and AGR (arginine) for serine (in several animal orders) and for stop (in vertebrates). We propose that the changes are typically preceded by loss of a codon from all coding sequences in an organism or organelle, often as a result of directional mutation pressure, accompanied by loss of the tRNA that translates the codon. The codon reappears later by conversion of another codon and emergence of a tRNA that translates the reappeared codon with a different assignment. Changes in release factors also contribute to these revised assignments.
--------------------------

Hope that helps
GWG
Smartass
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